SEO Strategy, Tactics & Tools With Jacob McMillen

Stephen: All right, Jacob, man, I’m really glad you’re here. How’s it going? 

Jacob: Good. How about you? 

Stephen: It’s going good, man. It’s like, you know, well, your business is doing good. I’m kind of in the earlier stages, but you know how that goes. 

Jacob: Totally. Did you? Yeah, you’ve been putting up some great content on LinkedIn.

I’ve been enjoying seeing it. 

Stephen: Yeah, that means a lot to me, man. It’s been quite a journey and I’ve been advocating content to lots of people. So, you know, hearing that from you means a lot. So I appreciate that. Totally. So, I know you get a lot of traffic to your site, but one thing I want to break to you is I think a lot of that is just me on your site, like over and over.

Like when I first ran into you, I just loved the way your site was set up. And then, you published that one thing that says this is basically the template to build your landing page. 

Jacob: Oh yeah. Yeah. I think that the site, the website templates. 

Stephen: Yeah, that was a great resource.

And I still go back to that and I still remember your original format. It’s like, you know, what was this like? You’re only gonna want two things from me. 

Jacob: Totally. 

Stephen: I loved the way that was set up because it was so clear and anyways…

Jacob: That’s awesome, man. I appreciate it. 

Stephen: Yeah, no. Yeah, of course.

But one of the things that blew me away, ‘cause I go to your site a lot, I saw on there what I thought was a gimmick at first. You said that you’re number one for the keyword “copywriting.” And I was like, no, that’s not possible. And I clicked on your link and I was like, dang, he really is, and so that kind of blew me away.

I was hoping you could tell me, like, number one, what drove you to do that? And then, kind of like, what was your thought process for actually making that… 

Jacob: happen? Yeah, so, I think my answer is going to be slightly part informing and a little bit of a letdown, because the truth is I wasn’t at the time going for “copywriting.”

Uh, what, about 12 months ago? I decided to kind of lower my freelance work and start working a lot on my own site content, and seeing if I could rank across the board for a bunch of copy and copywriting related terms. And part of what motivated me to do it is I had helped a client the year before, who was as a second-year website ranking for, literally, in the top three for every consulting related keyword, you know, consulting, consultant, how to become a consultant, how to start a consulting business.

And he was making a bunch of money from that. So I was like, why don’t I do the same thing for myself, but with copywriting? So for the last 12 months, that’s what I was working on. I had written a post last January of 2019, I believe it was, I had done this complete guide to how to become a copywriter.

And that was the phrase “how to become a copywriter” that I wanted to rank for. At the time, Ramit Sethi was the top result for that, as well as a guy named Neville, who also sells copywriting training. So I was kind of looking, you know, they’ve been there for years and I was like, how do I just create a resource that I feel is a bit more comprehensive?

Maybe a little more contextual, a lot of times when you get into these in-depth guides, sometimes people jump the gun. You know, diving into things before people really understand. And then on the flip side, a lot of times people kind of stay in the shallow end and don’t really go as deep as they could.

So I was trying to aim for that sweet spot of, you know, introducing people at the beginning and getting them deep by the end. So that’s what I did, and that I predicted that one was kind of cool, ‘cause I predicted it on my email list. I was like, “Hey, I’m going to rank for this, I’m gonna be on the front page for this.”

And in six months, I’d just cleared nine or 10. And then I was like, give me another three months. I’m going to be in the top three. And I hit it again. And I was like, yeah, man, I’m getting good at this. But then around December, January of, you know, December 2019, January 2020, Google’s algorithm started changing a bit, and all of a sudden, the results that were ranking for “how to become a copywriter sharp,” started showing up on the front page for just the word “copywriter.” And so at that point I was like, shoot, I need to narrow this in. Yeah. And aim for this term specifically. And so that’s when I started playing around and making some adjustments specifically to try to catch the featured snippet box.

Within a week I had it, and it was kind of cool. I was the number one result. Plus, I had the snippet box for two weeks and I got a ton of traffic from that. Then Google right then, for the first time in 10, 20 years, Google changed it to where, or? I don’t know. I don’t remember how long they’ve had featured snippets, but for the first time, since the introduction of snippets, they changed it to where if you have the snippet, you don’t get the first result as well.

So then it was not quite as good to be number one, but still, I’m still getting more traffic than anyone else for that term. It makes for a great little party story/bullet point on the “About” page. 

Stephen: Oh yeah. I thought that was like, honestly, I couldn’t believe it, it just seemed like almost impossible.

I was actually, it was funny, I was talking to my mom last week and I was telling her that I was gonna interview you and she actually knows you too, ‘cause I’ve talked a lot about you with her. And she was like, well, it just takes persistence. And I was like, yeah, I’m sure it does. And it’s probably true.

It’s true. But I was like, there’s got to be something, so, so when you started to see that, how does your mind think, what do you start doing? I know it’s probably more advanced stuff, but what is your… what do you start doing to tweak it? It’s… 

Jacob: Honestly, just search intent and matching the search intent and then keeping people reading your stuff.

I break with the larger SEO community on several key points. Most notably that I think Google’s kind of full of shit in terms of what they say the ranking factors are. I think Google just outright lies to us on certain points. So technically, time on page Isn’t a ranking factor. But when I look at my content versus their content, I’m not ranking.

A lot of times I’m behind on all these other points, but I have six and a half, seven, eight minutes time on page average. Some people would say, Oh, that’s just bounce rate. But bounce rate’s separate from time on page. They’re very different metrics.

So to me, the fact is that it comes down to the people who stick around to read my content. Like read it through to the end, you know, like they really engage with the content. There’s nothing super special to that. It just comes down to really thinking through what they’re looking for.

And as I said before, taking them through it in a way where you create the context early. So that each point you provide makes sense. And it’s not like you say, let me bash you over the head with these really new tactics when you don’t really understand the concept, or at the same time when they’re actually looking for tactics, you are continuously forcing them to stay in the shallow end and just discuss concepts.

So it’s finding the mix and match there. And then too, just following best practices in terms of OnPage SEO, internal linking. Internal linking is a very overlooked tactic that a lot of people who do a ton of card content marketing don’t do, which is where you go through your blog, posts, and your other blog posts and link to another poster, wanting to rank for the terms that you’re looking to rank for.

So going in, after you publish a post and add in a few links like that throughout your content, it’s made a huge difference for me. I noticed an immediate difference in ranking speed and ranking height, I guess, how high I got in the rankings when I started implementing that a few years back.

Stephen: So specifically, what you’re saying is you publish something new and then you’ll go back into an old post and there’ll be a keyword that links to it. Like you didn’t go in depth on it, but then you go in depth on it later. So you link to it from there. 

Jacob: Exactly. And if you want to get really good, advanced, that’s where you start thinking.

With your content strategy, you start planning for that in advance. So you start thinking that this is a classic kind of spoke and wheel type pillar content strategy. But, sometimes the actual content isn’t a perfect fit for that spoke and wheel.

So, you just want to be thinking in general about how my content is going to interact with other content. When you’re writing your pillar pieces, you want to be thinking about what content will it make sense for me to link to from that piece? And then you want to write that content instead of needing to link out to another site you’re linking to yours. Then you link that content back to the pillars.

That’s the essence of it. Yeah, ‘cause you’re communicating to Google. This is what we want,  these are the posts that we want to rank for these terms. And our blog is built around that, these being our main posts. That’s kind of the essence of it. 

Stephen: Gotcha. And what’s that spoke and wheel?

What is that like? I haven’t heard that term. 

Jacob: Well, it’s the idea that you have a wheel and then you have the hub in the middle and then the spokes coming out to the wheel. So you structure your content that way, where you have your main posts that are the hub posts, and then you have these posts around the edges that all connect to each hub and you link them.

That’s sweet, you know, to each other and back to each other. It’s kind of become a popular terminology. That’s been in the space for quite a while. 

Stephen: Gotcha. Okay. Cool. 

This is something I actually wanted to touch on that you mentioned, and that is the intent of cause like SEO is intent based, right?

So, it’s like people are searching for stuff. I remember when I first reached out to you and had you help me when I was doing something a little bit different. Yeah, that was one thing that always bothered me that maybe you can’t solve these things beforehand. But how do you think about intent?

Should you be reaching out to your customers and asking what they search for, or is there another way you can go about doing that? What do you think about that? 

Jacob: There’s a number of different ways. And to be honest, my specialty is top of the funnel content. So it’s the stuff that’s getting a high traffic volume, that’s competitive, that’s kind of where I’ve made a name for myself as ranking for that stuff.

A lot of times you can get even more value doing the mid and bottom of the funnel stuff. That does come from talking to customers, seeing specifically what they’re asking about the phraseology they’re using, stuff like that. Cause a lot of times the highest value searches don’t really translate into high search traffic.

You know, that’s where we talk about the long tail. It’s where we talk about stuff. That’s basically if you were to grab a hundred different customers and they were all searching for essentially the same thing, they might all type it differently. Where with other terms everyone’s typing the same thing.

If you’re doing mid to bottom of the funnel, yes. You go to the customer, you go to the people who are doing the searches and try to figure out what they are looking for. What questions are they answering or asking. Then you build content around that. If you’re doing top of the funnel, which is historically what I focused on, then you use the search volume to inform your initial list.

If you’re looking for stuff with high search volume, like how to become a copywriter or website copywriting, or something like that, then you’re looking at: what’s ranking on the front page for this term? That informs you on what Google feels like.

The intent is from there, data, what people are wanting to stick around on when they search for that. That can kind of help you, thinking through that and then thinking through, if it’s a little bit more specific, like how to become a copywriter, that’s a longer term with a little bit more specific intent, then you think about if this was me and I was searching this, what would I want?

What sort of resource would I be looking for? And you just try to create the best possible resource. And sometimes, the more competition there is for a term, the more sophisticated Google’s understanding of what people are looking for is, whereas with certain terms, maybe there’s not a whole lot of competition.

So you’ll have stuff on the front page that doesn’t match the intent very well. If you recognize that and then create something that matches the intent better, you’ll often jump right up to the top. I see a lot of people complaining, especially in the marketing space, about mediocre content, you know, holding these rankings just by virtue of a backslide backlinks and stuff like that.

In my experience, it’s really just whining. Like when I actually like the people I’ve been knocking off have not been, you know, we’re talking. You know, both for my site, it’s been seven figure businesses for some of my clients. It’s been eight, nine, 10 figure businesses that we’ve been knocking off the rankings who are investing heavily in SEO.

They have a ton of backlinks, but the intent match isn’t very good. And if you legitimately go through and create something, with a better resource for a lot of people in marketing, when they think, Oh, my better resource isn’t working, all they did was just make something longer.

So they’re annoyed that their longer piece isn’t ranking when it’s not actually a better piece. It’s not really answering the user intent better than what was already there at a shorter length. 

Stephen: Got it. So then, how does a business decide, especially when, let’s say, they don’t have anything.

How do they decide whether to do the more top of the funnel or the more stuff in the middle? Like what’s the thought process to even start thinking about that?

Jacob: It sort of depends on your competition and kind of the budget that you’re bringing to the table. If you are coming into a very competitive market with a low budget, you’re not going to get any of the top of the funnel stuff, you just aren’t. So, you want to start with the mid to bottom of the funnel stuff that maybe no one is specifically targeting and see if you can kind of get some initial results there. Yeah, you can also look to use paid promotion to kind of enhance the initial reach of your content and turn that into emails, subscribers. Content has more uses than just SEO as you know, so it comes down to who are you competing for?

What, on the SEO side? And then how can you maneuver around that? If you’re not ready to try to smash it with a hammer, how can you scalpel out some pieces for yourself? I got you. 

Stephen: When we first started working together, you had me write up a bunch of articles.

And then you did a keyword analysis on them. There was a bunch of stuff that you said, you’re never going to rank for that. And then there was some stuff at the bottom. Is that the same thing we’re talking about here? Where some of it’s top of the funnel? And so you were helping me try to get mid funnel stuff?

Jacob: Yeah. So when I work with someone who’s looking for a content strategy in a competitive, very competitive space, what I tend to do is I look for a mix. I look for what are some really high end keywords that we have a shot for ranking three years from now.

If we were to rank for this, it would be a huge deal for the business. You know? It’s worth the investment if we’re planning on making it. Yeah. So basically those are the posts. I want to get a few of those posts up in the first year, because, if you wait three years, you’re starting three years away.

Again, you have to get them up to start building authority and building time is a ranking factor. 

Stephen: And are those pieces pretty meaty pieces?

Jacob: Exactly. Those are going to be very meaty. The top of the funnel type pieces. And then as with any content strategy I do, I’m also going to be looking for some of those mid to bottom of the funnel pieces that we can try that could potentially get some search traffic in the first year. Because at the end of the day, no matter how gung-ho someone is coming in at the beginning, if you’re not seeing any rankings and you’re not seeing any results, that can get discouraging.

It can make you want to second guess the channel. So it’s good to have a mix of both. So you can look for some initial results and maybe find some. Maybe some of that content turns into immediate sales because it’s that very low traffic, high intent stuff that can grab a customer immediately. Whereas the top of the funnel stuff, again, you’re looking for volume that trickles down through your funnel into a small percentage of sales. You’re not looking for a click and buy, whereas with bottom of the funnel stuff, you’re potentially in that situation to have a click and buy scenario or a click email sign up into a very, very short window purchase.

So you kind of want to do a mix of the two. For me, when I started going intense on my own content 12 months ago, because I felt like I could rank for all the top of the funnel stuff up until yeah. Lose point. That’s mostly what I’ve been focusing on. Then through this next year, I’m going to start to, now that my products are more in place and I’m a little more zeroed in on the funnel side, I’m going to start looking to get some of the bottom of the funnel stuff as well.

Stephen: And then what, help me understand, what’s the difference between mid and bottom funnel? How do I really understand that? 

Jacob: So, super simple. An example would be how to become a copywriter versus a copywriting course. So if I Google copywriting course, I’m either looking for a free course, which free course means immediate email signup, which is stuff that’s kinda mid funnel, or I’m looking to purchase a course. That’s the bottom of the funnel. That’s something where I’m potentially interested in purchasing right now. Whereas if I look up Copywriter or how to become a copywriter,  or something like that, I’m more just exploring what that topic is, trying to see how I would go about doing that, which is, again, a great fit.

If you’re looking to sell someone a copywriting course, people who are searching that and might be in the market for that — some percentage of them will be — but there’s probably going to need to be a little bit of a nurturing process. They’re not necessarily looking to buy right now.

Stephen: Got it. Got it. So the copywriting course is bottom of the funnel or is that mid funnel too? Like, I guess… 

Jacob: The mix, yeah, the bottom there, it’s a little bit of… 

Stephen: Don’t overthink it too much.. 

Jacob: Yeah, exactly. But in general, it’s more a search term with much lower traffic that people search when they have a specific use intent.

Stephen: And that’s kind of what makes it that more bottom of the funnel search. Got it. 

Then in terms of if somebody is just getting into it, what should they be thinking in terms of results so they don’t get discouraged. And then after we talk about that, I’d like to say, what’s the difference between me going at it alone, and then me hiring someone like you who… 

Jacob: Can supercharge it. 

Stephen: So I guess we’ll start at the beginning.

What should I expect? What’s realistic? 

Jacob: So. Again, it depends. SEO is a, I’m probably going to get the wrong word, but it’s a zero sum game, right? There’s limited real estate. And if you want a piece of it, you have to knock someone else out of that piece.

So it one hundred percent depends on who you are competing against and how much ammunition they are bringing to the table. The most well known. High, high price, niche, and SEO is a personal injury law. All original SEOs went after because it’s so competitive because the results of search traffic are so lucrative to these firms.

You want to compete in that space? You gotta bring tens of thousands of dollars, possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars to the table on a month to month basis to compete with some of these brands that have been doing that for the last five to 10 years, and take that all the way down to a niche where…

Copywriting, frankly, where very few people are competing over it, as much as I’d love to sing my praises over ranking for these terms, the reality is there for any given term I’ve targeted, there’s maybe two or three serious players I had to knock out to get it.

 It wasn’t like we had three pages worth of results that I had to grind through to get these rankings. If you wanted to come in and compete with me in the copywriting space, you’re going to need to bring much less to the table than if you were to go try to tackle personal injury law, you know?

So yes, it a hundred percent depends. It’s really just a matter of who’s already there and how much content are they doing? How much link-building are they doing? Are they running a high volume of Google advertising? Are they spending a lot on Google ads? All those factors contribute to what you are going to have to do to rank here.

Stephen: So how did the, how did the ads play into it?

Jacob: If you’re running Google ads to a page, and this might be one of those ones where Google lies to you a bit, but if they can, they factor that in sometimes to the SEO rankings, if you’re paying them tons of money every month for ads related to that search term, a lot of times that gives you some SEO benefit as well.

Interesting. So it’s just one more factor to consider, but it’s definitely not a make or break factor. 

Stephen: I gotcha. Cool.

So, in terms of all these software tools out there like H ref, what are the top, what do you use? What do you consider the top tools for doing SEO, and are they required?. How do you think about that? 

Jacob: I use a refs. I really like it.

I think for a long time it was like the de facto standard. I know they’ve been experimenting over the last year with some different data inputs. And so some people have felt the outputs have been lagging or dropping. Something to consider if you’re going in.

But you know, it’s been the gold standard for a long time. To be honest, I mostly use it just for keyword research. I mean, honestly, keyword research is the tricky part of it. I would say I learned everything else about SEO in the span of three months. And it took me a year and a half to feel like I understood keyword research at all.

It’s because it’s not a simple math equation of, Hey, put this here, check off this box. This means it’s good. This means it’s bad. It’s this multi-variable comparison, because like I said before, it’s the zero sum game of what your competitors are doing

And how does that translate to what you need to do? How does that translate to what you’re doing, capable of? So you’re just constantly comparing all these things and then, it’s one thing to even understand what you’re looking for on the screen, on the graph.

But then you actually have to go out and attempt to rank for some of these things and see how those numbers translate into actual performance. That’s a process. I remember early on when I was exploring SEO, I would rank for these keywords that I thought would be this big deal and I’d get no traffic from them. I’d think, Oh, if I can get this keyword, it’ll be a big win.

And then I did it and it’d be like, nothing. I might as well not have gotten it. I still had no clue what I was looking at when I looked at this keyword research. And so that’s kind of one of those modes in this space, to be honest, where it’s not, 90% of SEO.

I could tell you everything I know on a 30 minute call, but when it comes to that it kind of translates to your other question, which was how can someone like myself help. The simplest answer is the keyword research, the stuff that you aim for, with your content.

You know, if you haven’t had the background that I’ve had, it’s hard to look at the landscape and know what to try to rank for. Because of how high investment in SEO is, you don’t want to do what I did in my first year and spend all this time. In your case, not in my case then, but in your case now, probably a lot of money trying to rank for this stuff that doesn’t actually do anything for you that doesn’t really help you, with stuff that maybe you can’t even rank for.

Like some of the things I told you, Hey, don’t even bother with that. Because, you could throw a hundred thousand dollars at that and it might not be enough. So, it’s really about getting the maximum return on the investment that you’re going to make.

And so having someone that can point your efforts and your investment in the right direction can be a pretty big deal past that. If you’re talking about bringing an agency in to execute the full thing for you, that’s where potentially, depending on how you’re going about creating this content, like I said before, when I do content, people are reading my stuff for like six, six, seven, eight minutes.

Whereas the average for a lot of content is closer to one or two minutes. So it’s kind of variable levels of quality and it’s easy to under-invest. It’s very easy to overinvest in certain niches.

So having someone, whether they’re an outside consultant or in-house kind of person managing it all who really can understand those things and make sure you’re getting the most out of the time and effort you’re about to put into that channel is pretty critical. 

Stephen: Yeah, I got gotcha.

Cool. Well, Hey man, I appreciate all that stuff. I’d love to hear a little bit more about what you’re doing so everyone else can hear about it. I know you’ve got some exciting stuff. I saw your email. It said you were going to be spending, it was 25 grand a month, or was that wrong? I want to hear a little bit about the reasoning behind that, ‘cause most people seem to start small and I was like, what? 

Jacob: That’s awesome. 

Stephen: I want to tell everybody what you’re doing. I know you’re making a transition. And then tell us a little bit about the paid ads. Cause that’s interesting stuff. 

Jacob: Yeah. So, in the last year, most of my effort has gone into making a comprehensive course to help freelancers get more consistency in terms of client acquisition and their income and also something that’ll help new people entering the field go from zero to replacing their full time income in three years, months, potentially even hitting six figures in their first year.I have a course for that. And then I also launched a community that is exclusively for intermediate and advanced writers, solo, preneurs, marketers, but kind of writing is the central piece for everyone’s career for the most part.

I found that once I kind of got the info I needed to get up and running with my business, what’s really impacted me over the years is just being around people who are as ambitious and like-minded as me who are trying things I’m not trying who are succeeding in ways I’m not succeeding.

Pretty much everyone from my circle and in Write Minds that you’ve seen doing stuff on LinkedIn is because of who these people were exposed to who were doing great things through LinkedIn. So, you know, just stuff like that. Also if you’re remote, this business can be lonely, man.

Like it’s nice to have some day to day interaction action with people and just shoot the shit once in a while. So it’s those two things. This last year was about validating that I can offer something worthwhile to people. 12 months in we’ve had a 75 to 80% retention rate on each, for Write Minds, which has proved to me that we’re offering something people really want and are really benefiting from an addition to all the actual direct feedback.

And then also the courses now live for long enough that I’m starting to get a bunch of testimonials from people. So for me, it was like, okay, I know that this stuff is working for people now. So now it’s time to, you know, step on the gas and, and try to get it out there. So there was a crew of guys who I’ve worked with on two clients in the past who are ad guys.

The first client I worked with them, they helped take them from, I think they were at seven, from seven figures up to eight figures. And then the last client I worked with them on, they took them all the way to seven figures, and this is core sales in both cases. So for me, it was just like, shoot, you know, who knows how long Facebook’s gonna be viable.

Strategy. It’s been the gold standard for years and I haven’t really utilized it at all and I’ve been wanting to, and these guys were willing to work with me on that and they told me, Hey, you know, for us to really have a real shot at this, we need to start at 20 grand a month. But let’s do it.

Let’s take a shot. We’ll see what happens. And I’ve also just felt like throughout my career, what’s helped me get ahead and stand out, has always been, being willing to take risks that most people aren’t and try things that are high risk, high reward. And if it fails, you know, I know I’m going to be fine.

‘Cause the freelance writing, right. Very reliable baseline for cash flow and income. And so that’s always in the back pocket. And so  just gonna take a shot and see what happens. 

Stephen: And all your SEO stuff has already, that’s taken off. 

Jacob: Exactly. And that’s already there cooking for me. So that’s another baseline as well.

So it just felt like a good time to take a shot. And I also know too with the pandemic and I feel like we’re in for another pretty big recession. There’s going to be a lot of people displaced from their careers who are going to be needing a way to go make income. Now that’s not something they’ve known in the past. And I really truly believe that freelance writing is just one of the most reliable. E-commerce is set to hit over a trillion dollars for this year, which has blown out the projections.

And it’s only going to get bigger and copywriting fuels all of that. Copywriting fuels every online business. And so the demand is just exploding. We could double the supply of writers we have right now. And it still wouldn’t meet the demand.

I feel like my course is the best option out there. I want people who are looking for help to find my course before they go spend three, four or five times on something that doesn’t actually teach them how to land clients and stuff like that.

Stephen: Yeah, that’s awesome. Copywriting is really interesting. To be honest, I had a whole other business that I grew up over 12 years and really knew nothing about copywriting. Once I started getting into it, it was actually really exciting and fun to do, especially because I’m dyslexic.

So I’ve never liked writing big, long articles. They take me a long time, but one of the things that I think is fun about LinkedIn and all those other places is I get to write these really compact posts. And that is actually kind of fun. I feel it’s more copywriting and learning those skills.

I remember when I first showed you my set and you were like, this is horrible. I don’t even know what this is. And over time, I just kept working on it and working on it. Yeah. I wouldn’t call myself a professional copywriter or anything, but I think I’ve definitely found a voice and a way to communicate through learning some of those skills.

Jacob: I remember when you sent me the newer version of your site and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is night and day compared to the other. You absolutely figured it out. 

Stephen: Yeah, no, no. I appreciate that. Well, cool, man. So how can people get a hold of you? 

Jacob: Definitely head over to the site and if you want to dive into any of the blog posts, I also do a weekly 10 minute audio series on writing, marketing and freelancing. So you can  sign up for either one of those or just, you know, drop me a line if you want to chat or if you have any questions on SEO or copywriting or whatnot. Pretty much every everything worth reading and anything you want to hear from me will come through the email list.

Stephen: Cool. And then what’s the site? 

Jacob: Jacobmcmillen.com. Cool man. Or you can just Google copywriter, you know, 

Stephen: That’s so awesome. Well, man, Hey, I really appreciate your time. Honestly, ever since I ran into you I really looked up to you, especially your focus on building your business.

So it was a real honor that you would spend the time with me. So I appreciate it.

Jacob: Oh, totally man. Happy to be here. And I really enjoyed the ongoing connection with you since you first reached out to me and it’s been super fun to see your content on LinkedIn. I like you’re hitting it with the, you know, you got the subtitles and everything.

They’re great looking videos. It’s awesome, man. 

Stephen: It’s been fun. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. All right, man. 

Jacob: I’ll see ya. Appreciate it, man.

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How To Build
Digital Products
That Scale

Build A

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Sales Funnel