Stephen: Hey, Camille. Nice to have you on the podcast today.
Camille: Good to see you, Stephen.
Stephen: Yeah. And we’re kind of in-person, as close as we’ll get, at least, for the time being.
Camille: I just wanted the listeners to think that we’re in person, just being really rebellious that way.
Stephen: Yeah, I actually did that one time on a podcast where we use two green screens and it made it look like we were in the same room.
Anyway. So yeah, I really appreciate you being on today. A lot of the people that have come on the show I’ve come across on LinkedIn. Usually I reach out to people because I’m pretty sure I reached out to you first. I think you might’ve made a comment on one of my posts.
But as soon as I reached out, you were on my radar, all of a sudden, I just saw you pretty much everywhere. And, so we started talking and interacting on posts and stuff. And, so then I was interested in what you were doing. I’ve been learning copywriting as I started doing what I’m doing now.
And so I was just interested in chatting with you. So I appreciate you being on.
Camille: Yeah, I appreciate the invite. Yeah, I remember seeing your stuff all over as well. And so it’s interesting and flattering that you would say that because any time that I see someone doing video well, then that stands out. I think I’ve told you this before, your background and your posters, they stand out in the feed.
Stephen: Yeah. That’s cool. I appreciate you. I’ve gotten that feedback a little bit. Yeah. I’m doing something right and I think it goes to show the whole personal branding thing in all reality. Branding to me is a new thing, building a personal brand.
I don’t know if it’s a new thing for you, but to me it seems like video is the new way to do it. I don’t even know what the old way was. It just seems like the new way is to be on camera and show who you are. And I like jazz and I play piano. So that’s kinda how I came up with those.
Camille: Yeah. That’s interesting because with technology, you have this opportunity for more reach, right? And so you always have brands because your brand is your name, right? Your brand is your reputation. So personal branding always existed in that way, in that sense.
But now with technology and especially with social and with virality, like something going viral, it just takes personal branding to this other level.
And so now it’s like a four letter word. Cause the first thing that I think of is a LinkedIn influencer. Not to say that there’s anything wrong with the LinkedIn influencers, but there’s a few different ways that can go.
And so it seems very superficial. And I think that is why people will cringe at it and stay away from the term personal branding or why people are sick of it. Cause they’re like, “No, it’s not personal branding like that. It’s just me being me.” So I think I would encourage people to have a personal brand, right?
For them to put themselves out there. But probably for different reasons than other people would say. I think I would tell people to go about it a different way. So the way that I feel I’ve gone about it is, one, not thinking about personal brand for a long time, just doing the work.
I’m still in my twenties, I’m 29, but after working for five or six years in the industry, that was all I was focused on. I was just focused on really getting good at my craft and just learning. Then I’ve found that in working with people, if you do really good work or if you’re a hard worker and you’re likable, which just really just means being nice to other people and respecting their craft as well.
We were just talking about copy versus design and understanding that you need both. That was especially the case in the creative agency where I was a copywriter, but I very much respected the designers and very much understood that I couldn’t do that and that my stuff wouldn’t work as well if I didn’t have them and vice versa.
There was mutual respect there. And so what’s been really cool to see is, since leaving that agency and since getting more into marketing and getting more into in-house, I’ve had people reach out to me that I worked with before that are like, “Hey, I need copy for X, Y, and Z, would you be willing to help?”
I’m always flattered to hear that. Because I would love working with them again. It’s something where I feel like I need their permission. I would reach out to them for the same thing, if I was looking for the best designer, these are some of the people that I would reach out to.
So let’s pull up for it to come full circle. I think with personal branding that you need to think about, you do not need to think about it. You just go about doing your work and just get in the weeds and into your craft and understand how to work well with people, but not thinking about it as networking at first.
I honestly think that’s the better way to go. Because then you get the natural referrals that come with that. And so you’re building a personal brand that way. And then you have some things to share later. You have some experiences to share that you don’t when starting out.
I think that you can do the same thing as a student. You can say, these are some things that I learned in class. These are some things that I learned at my first interview, or interviewing for different jobs. There’s different things that are helpful for different stages.
But for me, it was just helpful for me to have focus and to just do the work, and then worry or think about personal branding later.
Stephen: Yeah, I think that’s an interesting way of looking at it, too. Because then you stay focused on doing the right things. I think what happens is as soon as something becomes popular and someone gets good at something, then they promote doing something like building a brand or something. Then it’s the same thing with authenticity.
I think all of a sudden they become just what they were, which wasn’t defined. It was just doing hard work or being who you were. Then someone puts a term to it, and then it almost destroys someone’s ability to do it. Because now they’re trying to do some sort of defined thing that really only worked for that person.
Camille: Yeah, that’s super interesting that you’d bring that up. Because we were just talking about Conan O’Brien and his career path. We were actually saying that his new podcast is his best work, some of his best work. Partly that’s because he has all these cool experiences to pull from. This is how I wrote for the Simpsons and how and why this works, but this is how it works for talk shows. He’s just met with all these cool people.
But also he’s unfiltered. We were talking about how he’s not funny in some situations where other people are really funny and then he’s really funny just riffing like that. And so when he’s in his own element, and just riffing, it all goes back to that whole, you’re not good at everything.
And the more that you can recognize that you’re not getting everything, the more successful you’re going to be.
Stephen: That’s cool. Yeah. I didn’t know he had a new podcast. I’ll check that out. It’s funny that you’re mentioning some of this stuff because this is actually something that I struggle with, personally. I’ve always been someone that when I see somebody doing something cool, in a way, to a certain degree, I envy it.
I try to emulate it to absorb some of it. Then what I can find myself doing is getting a little bit distracted or getting a little bit off of who I was. But then I’ll absorb it and then figure out where my limits are and whatnot.
Then I kinda bring it back in and then I feel whole again. But I definitely go through these stages where I feel like I’m not being who I am. To a certain degree, I think maybe that’s okay. I see lots of posts on authenticity recently. My theory is you’re always becoming something new.
That’s part of being authentic too, stepping out of your comfort zone and doing something new. And being comfortable with that, even though it’s not necessarily who you are at the moment. I don’t know if that makes sense, but I guess all I can say is that I’ve noticed that some people are more focused sometimes than I am, because I’m always looking at people doing cool things, like even you, I see what you’re doing with your copy.
And I’m like, Oh, that’s interesting. Like how she puts that together, how she does that, how could I pull some stuff from that? But it also distracts me a little bit and it keeps me from having a center at times.
Camille: Yeah, I relate to that a lot. For one, I have always tried to hold that one thing that I’m good at.
So it was helpful when I met with a counselor in college. I told them that I liked art, business and writing. That’s the formula that I gave them. So they said you should really check out the advertising department. So that’s what I did. And I applied for the creative track and then I applied for copywriting.
That was mainly luck, where they just happened to have a program for that. And then I just happened to go all in on it. So I was able to have a niche early on. It’s funny because I hear people saying, just be really broad at first, right? Just be more of that.
Not T-shaped whatever the shape is, where it’s like completely broad, where you go into it. And so yes and no. I liked having a niche because I think that helped me get a job. For one, I think getting a marketing job is really hard. The first one, it’s always hard, I think, because there’s just a lot of people that want to do it.
Even though there probably should be more, people aren’t always hiring as many people as they need for their department. So I think it did help and I would probably encourage somebody to have some sort of like niche going into the job market because it just helps you stand out.
But then once I was in an agency setting, it did get pretty broad because I’m not just working on digital or I’m not just working on print, or I’m not figuring out exactly what I want to do yet. I’m just trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can about the different mediums and about working with people and about different types of clients, and different types of industries.
So that’s why I’ve been preaching about agency settings, or at least a collaborative setting where you can get a little bit of everything because the reality is you’re not going to know out of college or out of high school, what you want to do.
And so I do agree that you should have different types of experiences so you can know which one you want to pursue basically.
Stephen: Yeah, I hear what you’re saying now. I hear what you’re saying too. It’s funny though. I knew what I was going to do when I was in high school.
I knew what I was gonna do even when I was a little kid, and then into college I did. But my journey in the last couple years has actually switched quite a bit. I’ve almost switched careers. I’ve switched niches into a whole different thing.
At first I was thinking that I was in marketing, but I’m really just helping people do business development. Ultimately I just use marketing to help people get attention. Yeah, I totally hear what you’re saying. I think you’re right too about the agency stuff. I ran, not a marketing agency, but I ran a tech agency, so I was building technology for people.
You just learn so much stuff in that environment. Like you’re doing so many different things. You’re working with customers, you’re dealing with fires, you’re working with employees. You’re just throwing so many different things. I think you just develop so many different cool skill sets that I know you don’t learn in the job setting because I’ve talked to so many different people and I can just tell that there’s a difference.
Camille: Yeah. And on the flip side, I think that there’s something to be said for working in-house. And so I’ve said this as well that I think agency was great for learning a little bit of everything. And I think that in-house is great for going deep. I’ve seen, I think it was right after I graduated, that there were recruiters at the school and Apple was recruiting for their in-house creative department.
I don’t know how long they had that, but I’m pretty sure that it was a new thing at that time. Like big agencies were still in control. Then since that time, there’s been a lot more, a lot of the big enterprises have their own in-house creative teams or their own in-house marketing teams.
They always had their in-house marketing teams, I think, but they’re moving more and more toward marketing in-house rather than outsourcing it, and I think that’s smart, because who’s going to understand your target market and your business better than your people?
And so I thought that has been a really interesting shift as well. So I think there’s merit to both agency and in-house. We haven’t even talked about freelance yet, but freelance as well. I think that, that’s definitely on the rise as well.
Stephen: Yeah. It’s funny too, just to emphasize what I was saying before, about how I get off track. When you started talking about somebody going deep and being in-house, I was like, Oh man, that sounds really cool. I really I’d love to have that kind of expertise.
Camille: Yeah. We could go all sorts of directions with this, but I’ll try and keep it on task stuff.
Stephen: No, I think it’s awesome. Yeah. So one thing I did want to chat with you about, because we started talking about LinkedIn, I’d be interested to hear a little bit about your journey.
Because we were chatting on LinkedIn yesterday and you used the words, “you went all in.” I’d be interested to know what you mean by that, specifically. We’ve been talking for a couple months on LinkedIn, but I just keep track of the kind of people, where they are.
And I’ve just noticed that you’ve had a lot of growth in terms of the engagement that you’re getting on your posts. Especially when you mentioned going viral, you meant you did one yesterday that had 500 likes, or I think it’s at that at this point. So tell me a little bit about your journey.
I have some theories about how you’re doing it, but I’d love to know what you’re doing and how you’re going about it.
Camille: Yeah, first off, I think it’s so funny that we’re always trying to understand the matrix.
Stephen: I’m like crack the code.
Camille: It obviously is an algorithm. And so there are things to be cracked.
But yeah, about a year ago, I posted my first original post. Before that I had shared some company posts. I had shared some posts in the past, maybe four, and then, a year ago, what happened was I was preparing for an event. A lot of things went wrong with it.
We were working with a sign company, and they gave us a call just to talk, tell us about things that were going wrong. So we got off that call and my boss said that was unproductive. And I was like, what do you mean? And he said, “They just told us what wasn’t working, but they didn’t present a solution.”
That was a huge light bulb moment, both for our posts that I wrote, but then just in general, in life, of, “Oh, it’s actually not helpful to dwell on something that went wrong. It’s actually really helpful to just move beyond that and to figure out how to fix it as soon as possible in a way that’s sustainable.”
So my boss had all sorts of good wisdom that he dropped. He said that we had this event, it went fine. And we had a recap on things that went wrong, but how it ended up being fine. On the way back from that event, I was writing this post in my head without really realizing that I was writing a post in my head.
I’m sure I was thinking about it as a post because at that time I was on LinkedIn. I just started looking at posts more frequently, but I wasn’t doing anything about it. I wasn’t posting myself but I had this fresh kind of failure that I overcame, so I wrote it, not using voice or anything, I just wrote it in my head.
And then I tried to write it down as best I could when I got home and I posted it. And then that actually did pretty well, which was good and bad. That got maybe like 70 likes and a few shares. So then after that, I was like, “Oh, LinkedIn is easy. I got this.”
And then of course, the next few posts bombed. They were not good.
And so it’s funny how that works. Then I was figuring out why that was. It was like, I put some thought into this and also had something to say. And I think those are the main things that people forget.
Just the basics of having something to say, whether it’s something that you learned, and I think that “this is insight,” right? So there’s information everywhere. There’s information overload is what I keep saying. You can find answers to questions, right? You can get straight facts, but actual insights I think are more rare, right?
What is your spin on that information? So how do you interpret it? Yeah. How do you interpret that information? Your take is interesting, is it different from other people’s takes? Or at least it is presented in a way that gets people thinking.
And that’s how I would think about social specifically, because regardless of what your goals are with it, you do probably still need reach, right? You need to reach enough people for you to meet whatever your goals are. But you also need to engage people.
And so I think if you think about it in terms of, “what insight am I going to share today, and how? Is that interesting enough for people to engage with? Is that interesting? Is it a conversation starter? Or is it just me saying this is how it is. I’m not open to questions.” And so that’s a good barometer for it. Is this post opening up a discussion is how I’ve started thinking about it, yeah.
Is this a discussion? Or is this just a lecture? Which is, not as good. Or is it anything like, is this just a fact? How-to posts can actually do really well as well. So, I do think that it’s a mix. I’ve seen a few people talk about this, of having, broad appeal type posts.
And then also having really deep down nitty-gritty how-to posts. I think the post that actually got me some leads or people interested in what I do, was actually one that was just a list of questions of, Hey, these are some questions that I have when I’m coming to your website, that you should probably answer.
Stephen: So that was a good post. I actually copied that one down. So every once in a while I’ll see a post that says something and I copied yours down and put it into my messaging framework. I had a document that I keep and I threw that in there. That was actually a good one.
Camille: Thank you. Yeah. So I appreciate that. So it’s funny because I know when something’s going to do well, but not all the time. I didn’t know that post was, it was going to do well. So then it’s like you said, it’s dissecting it later, kind of what is the formula, if you’re trying to think of it as a formula. I try not to get super deep into that because I think, like I said, it’s distracting.
It can sometimes take away from the authenticity. But I do, every few months, like to step away and say, what worked and why did it work? And I think we do that passively when we look at other people’s posts, at least I do, why did that work? But I think the core element is what I said is, is this opening up a conversation?
And then for people to even consume it in the first place, we’ve heard this a million times when you have to have a hook, You have to have an interesting first liner and then a pretty good second liner. I just think about, what does the preview look like?
Stephen: And what’s the value, what’s the value of it? Why am I going to stop and read this?
Camille: Exactly. Am I going to stop and read this, and why would I stop and read this? So yeah, those first three lines are key to that. I try not to think about it too much and it’s funny because the last two that I’ve done, it’s part of a compounding effect, right? Where you don’t really know what works until you’ve done it a while. And so I do think that I’m coming more around to the whole, what is it? Quantity. Quantity begets quality.
Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know what you’re talking about.
Gary V talks a lot about how obviously quality is better, but sometimes you need quantity too, to know what the quality is.
Camille: Yeah. so I think it’s a balance for me. I never wanted to put something into the universe that had my name on it, that you know, that I would be embarrassed about.
A few months later, I think that’s always going to be the case. If I looked back at some of my first few posts, I’m sure that there’s some cringy stuff there. But I did try to take time, when I make them, I do try and put some time into it. Still what I do is I’ll write them every night.
I don’t have a backlog. I don’t have a system other than just trying to write down my ideas as I have them. And that’s really helpful. And then the speed part of it, I think just comes with it because passively you’re realizing what works and you’re realizing what your voice is and what your style is.
And what things are resonating and then it all starts to come together. This could be a total fluke and I could go back to taking longer for the post, but the last couple posts have been a lot faster. So I do think that there’s probably something to doing it for 60 to 90 days.
Like just make yourself do it for that long, however long it takes to write a post that you are happy with, that’s to your standards and meets some of the things that I was talking about of having an insight, starting a conversation. Yeah. Then, because probably we’ll get to that point where it just becomes a little bit easier because it is a routine.
Stephen: Yeah, totally. And it’s funny, you mentioned this too, because I’m actually going through a transition right now where I’ve been starting to repurpose clips from my podcasts and stuff. So I’ve embarked on a new journey and I’ve noticed how that started to fluctuate with how my posts were performing before.
And so now I’ve got a new thing to learn. Cause right when I started doing the clips, I had felt like I was starting to have some control. I knew, if I wrote it like this, if I put out this story, I had a framework of the things I like to write about. But it’s been a little bit nerve wracking as I go into this new stage, because it feels very uncharted.
I’ve just noticed how it’s affected me. I’m figuring it out cause I think you also have to be not afraid to try new things. But it is interesting how all these things work and you have to figure it out. That’s one of the things that I find challenging when I’m talking to somebody that doesn’t do social media at all. I’m encouraging them to get into the game. It’s like, there’s not really a formula because everyone does it a little bit differently.
And I think a lot of the time people come into it with the expectation they’re trying to get leads. And I think that I think when you do it that way, people can tell and it influences your ability to actually make interesting stuff.
And so it’s interesting trying to explain to somebody that has no experience with social media, like what the value is and having that long-term thinking that, Hey, you’re going to have to even play around with this for a while and be committed to learning the ropes because there’s really no formula.
People can give you insights. They can say, Hey, it’s important to articulate your ideas. Hey, it’s important to get attention. It’s important to make a headline. But in the end, you have to, if you want people to think that you’re interesting, you have to figure out a way to communicate that from your point of view, otherwise it just won’t do well.
You can tell the people that are there that aren’t really putting in the time. You can go look at their feed and there’s literally a hundred posts and there’s no engagement on any of them. And it’s really because there’s no attention to the headline.
There’s, it’s just a link to somewhere else.
Camille: So yeah, that goes back to your question of yeah, Going all in. I still have an answer, so I will answer it for you. Basically, August, the fifth I think is when it was. I wrote it down on my phone because I knew I would forget. But I guess the fifth, I was, Okay, I’m going to post every day.
I think the reason that people don’t and the reason that it’s scary is because then you can fail if you’re committed to something. And like you said, you started seeing me a lot in your feed. So you can tell that I’m trying right? That I’m doing something every day, at least that I’m committed to doing it.
Stephen: What’s interesting to that point, yeah. So about seeing you in the feed, not only was I seeing your posts, I think what I really started to see was I saw you all over a lot of other people’s posts.
I did see your posts, but where I really saw you and I was looking at your feed yesterday, too, just to do some research on what you’re doing. You’re all over the place. Not just on your own posts. And so people can see you all over the place. And I think that’s something that people don’t really understand is that it’s not just about your own content.
Camille: Yeah. I know that a lot of influencers or people that are just doing well on LinkedIn in general, a lot of times the strategy is just comment. Like just start out commenting. I think that’s a lot less scary for people, because usually, if you have a prompt, you have something to say, And then usually it’s the coming up with the prompt that’s the hard part.
Yeah. And so if you can get prompts from other people, and you can add your 2 cents to it, It does a couple things. One, it gets your creative juices flowing. But then you’re also able to measure the response. If people are commenting on your comment or if they are liking your comment, then you have some feedback, whether it’s good or bad, of how that’s performing.
And that doesn’t necessarily mean anything either. Yeah, my best performing post was like a hidden comment at one point, right? Where, I had the idea, I had the shampoo idea that I just thought was a funny thought. I had it in my notes, but I left it as a comment. Nobody saw it for a while, like weeks. Then somebody liked it out of nowhere. And then the original person that I was commenting on responded to it. Then she validated it. She was like, Oh my gosh, this is so good. This analogy is so funny. And so I was like, Oh, okay. Like maybe I’ll do this for my post tonight.
That just ended up being my better, my best one. So it’s funny how that happens. I think that’s how I would encourage people to go about it because you’re not having to put yourself out there. Under your name, obviously it’s still under your name, but you’re not having to call it a post.
You’re just commenting on someone’s thing. You’re able to get feedback and then you’re able to get ideas and also are rid of them. That’s not really how I did it. I just started posting. Then I started commenting after that and then it’s just a compounding effect.
But for me it was when I started commenting. And when I started connecting with other people in marketing, I found a few people that I really liked, or I really enjoyed their content. And so because of that, I started, trying to leave comments, daily or at least regularly on a few people’s posts because I was getting value from them.
I wanted to help them spread their posts. But also I usually had something to say about it. So yeah, after August 1st, I was posting every day. I think what was important was my goal was not to get leads. My goal was to experiment. So I think that took the pressure off, that my goal was not a hard goal.
It was really just I’m going to experiment, like I’m going to learn this platform. I’m going to take insights from it and in doing that, I’ll be able to better run company pages, which I was managing for our company. So I’ll be able to get insights for that, the LinkedIn company page.
Stephen: Okay. Cool.
Camille: And so I was like, I’ll be able to get insights for that. And then it did evolve. I was like, okay, a good way for me to test out LinkedIn is for me to see if I could do it for myself. So I do have a freelance business. And so I do some freelancing on the side.
And I was like, I’ll just put up a billboard for that. I’ll put up my banner about my business. I need to do that anyways. Like I need to start building that on the side. So I’ll do that. And then I’ll change. I’ll update my header and I’ll update my bio. And so I’ll just get that personal branding part down.
Then that will help me with my experiment anyways, to see, if people DM me, why they’re DM-ing me, or if people comment on things, why they’re commenting on things. And so I learned some good insights from that. So I knew this, but in the headline it’s pretty important to have keywords in there.
And, in your about section as well. So if you want to be found for a certain thing, LinkedIn, as a people finder is what they say, right? So Google is more of a product or a thing finder, but LinkedIn is a people finder. And so people are looking for freelance writers or, IT specialists or whatever it is. They’re searching those things in the search bar.
And so if you don’t have that somewhere in your profile, even if it’s obvious, if you have the pictures or if you have links or something, if it’s not in your profile, it’s going to be harder to find you. I started doing that. I’ll look at the LinkedIn insights where it says, what things are being found or that gives them some data there.
So I started doing some, a little bit of research on what was working, what was not working. But really for me after I was posting for a few weeks, it became fun. I was like, Oh, I miss doing copywriting specifically for my day job, which is what I did before.
And, I’m able to write about whatever I want to write about. So as soon as I started thinking about it as a writing exercise, then that also helps. So at first it was just an experiment. And then for me to keep up with it, I was like, this is my daily writing exercise. I have to do this to get better at writing.
And, then I think that sort of helped as well, because again, it wasn’t like, I need to get 20 leads this month from LinkedIn. It’s not like, how can I get better at my craft? And how can I keep doing this? And the only way that I’m going to keep doing it is if it’s fun. And or if, yeah, if there’s something fun about it.
And so I think that mindset has been helpful for me of just going into it with, “I’m going to experiment, I’m going to look just, see what I can learn both from other people and from the algorithm.” Then for me to keep doing it, because everybody runs into a wall where it’s, “how long am I going to go with the score?”
Am I going to do this every day? I’m going to scale it back. And so for me to keep doing it every day, and I’m not saying I won’t scale it back. At some point I had to say, no, this is going to be my daily writing exercise. And so whether or not anyone else appreciates it or cares about it, I’m not as much worried about, I’m still gonna try to just put forth some of my better work.
And that was a pivot for me as well, because I was doing freelance work. I was working my job. And I don’t have a ton of extra time either. So I needed to be able to justify it. For me, it was like, “This is a way for me to practice my craft in a way that’s different from work.”
Like it’s a creative exercise.
Stephen: Yeah. That makes sense. And that’s what I encourage people to do as well. I’m helping people with thought leadership and using that as a tool for business development. Whenever somebody starts talking about these things, I’m like, “don’t worry so much about that.”
Thought leadership and building this out is a long-term thing. And you need to know some of these skills, even for me, getting on video like that, before I did it. So I’ve been on video almost a year now. It was basically the last Christmas I was thinking about it.
Then I was just deathly afraid of it, getting on video and putting a video out on LinkedIn and saying something. And now it’s just kinda normal. And my writing has gotten a lot better. I’m dyslexic. I haven’t spent a lot of time in my life writing or really reading either. I get my information from interviewing people.
Like you smart people that have done a lot of that stuff. So that’s where I get a lot of my information. I haven’t written a lot. But since I’ve been writing all these LinkedIn posts, you get to write really short, powerful stuff. It’s all a little bit about optimization.
You’re still trying to be human, but you’re trying to optimize all these words. So my brain was able to do that. Then more recently I wrote a longer blog and I got a lot of good feedback on it. It’s just that the writing was better. And I know that’s because I’ve been spending so much time doing this stuff.
So I think you’re right, yeah, I think you’re right. It’s, look at these things as a way to learn all these new skills that are going to be super important going forward, like getting on video, being able to articulate your points. I’ll even like podcasting and stuff like that.
That’s why, even though when I’m starting to put out these clips and they’re not getting the same reaction that some of my other posts were, which is discouraging to a certain degree, they’re doing fine. But I’m still like, “Okay. The reason why I’m going through this is because I’m trying to figure this out.”
I’m trying to learn how to do a podcast. I’m trying to learn how to interview guests. I’m trying to learn how to make all that micro content, like how do you find the cool clip and all that stuff.
And then, here’s an interesting thing too, that I’m also trying to figure out. Okay. So before, whenever I used to do a video, the copy could pretty much follow what the video was saying. I can almost take it word for word, cause I would write a script and I could just almost copy it. But here it’s different because I’ll take a clip and it might be 60 seconds and it’s not a complete idea.
Maybe it’s just where we’re talking and it’s just an interesting,
Camille: You write it down and it’s no, that doesn’t really work just like that.
Stephen: So then your copy is different from the video. Yeah. And that’s new to me as well, too. Like I’m trying to figure that out. So all these things are new and it’s uncomfortable, but if you look at it from, I’m trying to have fun, I’m trying to learn these things and I’m trying to experiment…
So that a year from now, I’m really good at this. And if it’s not LinkedIn, it’s like the next thing. And I’m there and I’m dominating there or something. Then it’s easier to have that long-term perspective when you’re trying to do all this stuff.
Camille: Yeah, it’s an investment, right?
And so it’s an investment of your time that you’re hoping will pay off. And so I think something like LinkedIn, where it does have decent organic reach compared to other things is, that was a big thing for me too, is that I knew that it was temporary, like I, I knew that it was going to fade out eventually and that I wouldn’t have that opportunity anymore.
Like even if I could write similarly good things, that’s an interesting thought actually, because I have seen people on Instagram right now that have been able to do really well. They recently got on, but their quality was good enough, that they’ve been able to gain a fan base.
So it’s not to say that you can’t do it at all, but you’re just making it that much more challenging for yourself. And it’s going to be that much more discouraging at the beginning because it’s going to take longer. And so for me, I was like, okay, It’s not really comfortable. I don’t really want to commit to doing something every day because we want our free time and we don’t want to have to do something.
But I was like, I’m going to regret it later if I don’t do it, and later I want to do it, but it’s an uphill battle. And maybe I have less time. So it was that too, that pushed me into it. I just heard enough podcasters and other people on LinkedIn, like you got to do it.
I just drank the Kool-Aid. Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know if there’s anything to that, but back to the investment, part of it is, which to your point, this is what made me think of it as, there’s the text posts and then there’s the video posts and there’s the gif posts. There’s a few different types of things to do.
And I’ve thought the same thing that you’ve thought, because I’ve gotten decently good at the text posts and I’m more comfortable with that and that’s just straight out writing. But the other day, I started experimenting a little bit with gifs and I haven’t really done video. I guess I have posted an audiogram that I was putting together, but I have tested other things a little bit, but it’s uncomfortable.
Cause you know that you’re not going to get that same reach. I mean organically, it discourages doing those things. And so you’re like, I don’t want to have to start from ground zero. I’ve already built up to this. But to your point, you have to start again. You have to start at ground zero to understand the whole ecosystem, right?
Just because you can do text posts doesn’t mean that you can do video posts and vice versa. I’ve also heard some different thoughts on this. I think you can win either way. I know people that have won work from text posts. I’ve definitely gotten people reaching out, with either interesting opportunities or just relationships, really. I like relationship building.
I know people have said that they’ve seen more when they’ve done videos. So Chris Walker has talked about how he did an experiment where he did a month of text posts. I think that’s right. Or just text, then both, and then he went back to video and he saw so many more leads from the video.
That makes sense to me because you can see the person. You can relate with the person. You can trust the person because you can physically see that they are a person.
Stephen: And you can do both. You can have a mixture because that’s what I’ve been ultimately doing. I do notice my videos don’t get as far, but they actually have much more engagement now in terms of how many likes and comments and stuff that the discussion is usually higher.
But then I have text posts and, I just, that goes further. But it really is interesting that you do get comfortable with something and you’re having a certain success with it. And when you switch on it and you don’t, you start to get attached to things. That’s one thing I do I appreciate about Gary V is he’s always talking about being okay with going to zero. Not just with social media, but with just life in general.
Like just always being ready for that. And having that as a mentality. I even want to start experimenting with Tik TOK. But I noticed even though I’ve been on camera and doing this other thing, I have some reservations about it and it doesn’t matter where you go. Anything new I think has some resistance to it.
Stephen: Even though I’ve been on camera, it’s like, why would I feel any different? But I somehow do. And, Anyway.
Camille: Yeah, I think, there’s that idea of messing up, right? You’re like, I’ve built this thing, you feel like you’ve built this tower out of Jenga blocks. And you don’t want to start pulling them out because you’re just afraid that everyone’s going to leave. I think that there’s something valid in that. I think that for some people it makes sense for them maybe not to do video, because you can make the argument in different ways.
But because it’s not their goal, right? Like they’re doing fine. Like with where they’re at. They are not comfortable with video. They don’t want to learn video. I think that’s fine too. I think people’s goals can be different. I think for some people it’s not about building a huge business, like a scalable business.
I’ve been a little bit more open to this idea of freelancing for life. I know plenty of people that do that. I’ve thought about that as well of needing less. I was writing about this the other day.
Stephen: That was a good post.
Camille: Thank you. But, yeah, I think that there’s something to that too, where you don’t have to have everything. And I think sometimes with social, that can be really hard because you’re like, okay, what’s next? What’s next? Like, how can I get better? And again, I think that there’s merit to both of those, because on the one hand, I think, lose what? What do I have to lose? This is all just in some ways a silly game, right?
Like where it’s just fake points for a lot of these things. Also, I am who I am. So either people are going to like me or not like me. If they see me on video or if they, I don’t know, see how I’m curating gifs.
Stephen: I totally agree with you. But at the same time, I just have the kind of personality where I’m always trying to push people a little bit.
And I would say for me, when I look back, when I originally went on video, I probably started social media all for the wrong reasons. I was trying to get leads and that’s probably why I started doing video. But when I look back now, the reason why I’m really glad that I did it is because it made me feel more comfortable just as a person.
I just exposed myself. It was one of those hurdles that I got over. I agree with you though. I don’t necessarily think that anybody should have to do it. I just encourage people to do it for the benefits of it’s the same as learning how to go on stage and do a speech.
I haven’t done that, but I know I would be better at it now than I would have before, just because I’ve been doing the videos and I know how to start.
Camille: Yeah, sorry to cut you off. I really think that you can find your voice on there and that sounds really cheesy and cliche. But I do think that it’s helped me with that. Because you find your stride, and you find your group. That was another thing that I didn’t expect from LinkedIn was, meeting people, and the networking side of it.
Since I was thinking about it in terms of copywriting and observing and experimentation, I was thinking about it as an artist and a scientist, very much introverted, but then I like people, and I was impressed by people and I have no problems reaching out and asking and talking to people.
So that part’s been cool. I didn’t know or expect that even though LinkedIn is obviously a networking site, that’s a big reason why it exists and it’s clearly a social media platform, but I wasn’t expecting it and it wasn’t my goal. That’s probably the biggest thing I’ve gotten out of it is just the people that I’ve met, and friendships that I’ve made and then all the growth and development and learning that come with that.
Stephen: Yeah, totally. And that’s the hardest part I have because I’m basically working with a lot of the people that have really built their business very traditionally. There’s nothing wrong with that, but that’s the hardest thing to help them understand when they look at it that way.
It’s, “Oh, how do I leverage it?” And then I’m like, first you learn what it is, and you experience it, and when I start to shed light onto it, it’s a networking event and you use those parallels, they will start to understand. If you go to a networking event and you try to get leads, you’re going to be the most unpopular person there.
Camille: Yeah. Yeah. You don’t do it probably.
Stephen: Yeah. If you think about it, who’s the most popular person in a networking group? It’s either the person that’s running it and creating the community, or it’s like the people that are really doing all the referring. Or maybe it’s the value thing.
Camille: Yeah, you’re totally right. And I think most people get that. Because salespeople or connectors know that business is about relationships, especially in B2B. So I think that’s really smart to use those analogies and say, no, this is not just because it’s online.
It’s no different, the business aspects don’t change. It’s still a relationship building and a connecting thing. It’s not a selling thing. That’s the number one thing that I see, the mistake that I see people make, is literally their social posts are like ads, and this is more common for small businesses and things.
And I totally understand how it happens, and no disrespect to that, but they’ll come at it as their ads. Or they’ll just try to weave in product or what they do into everything. And I’ve been guilty of this as well. You feel as an employee that you have to push the agenda or be able to back up what you do.
But really you’re going to be the most successful if you just write about your experiences. Because that’s how you’re going to relate to other people, speaking from experience. And so that was, that’s probably one of the biggest things that I’ve learned from LinkedIn from other people is, it’s just that they talked about whatever they were going to talk about and they still managed to get business.
There’s something to be said for focus and I’m like you where I get distracted. And I like everything. So for me, that’s been the number one thing. The reminder thing that I have to come back to in my mind, is still pretty broad like marketing and copywriting, and actually probably do 30% personal development.
That’s just become my formula. You have the main thing that you talk about. So marketing and copywriting, I feel like that’s focused enough, that I can still talk about. Whatever I’m feeling that weekend, too. So that’s another thing that I heard somebody say is that they tried not to post businessy stuff on weekends because people don’t want to talk about business on the weekends.
And so not to say that you can’t. I’ve seen people do it. I’ve liked posts that are businessy. I’m not like anti-business on the weekend. But, I think it depends on generally a different mindset.
Stephen: Yeah, but it also just comes down to the quality of it too. If it’s a really cool post it’ll break through.
Cool. So I wanted to talk to you about a bunch of other things that we didn’t really get to. So we can always have you back on again, but I wanted to give you a chance to talk a little bit about how you help people and where they can get a hold of you.
Camille: Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you. So right now I am the brand and digital marketing strategist at Texas Citizens Bank. I do a little bit of everything there. Like I mentioned, I manage the social pages. I help a lot with the communications, the website. Anything that touches marketing, I touch. So it’s a one-person marketing team right now.
But I do work closely with other members of the bank and we can talk about this another time, but the importance of the subject matter expert and the importance of operations in all of this. A big shout out to my CEO. That’s who I report to. And he’s been great, but everything is marketing, right?
Stephen: In a way.
Camille: Yeah. Yeah. The brand is internal and external. Yeah, I won’t get into that either, but it starts from the inside out. And so like HR, I work closely with HR on things as well. I work closely with it, so yeah, marketing needs to be a part of everything.
So that’s what I’m doing right now. I also take on some freelance work. I typically specialize in website copy. I typically help either small businesses, agencies. I’ve done a little bit of manufacturing, but those are the kinds of verticals that I’m typically doing for website copy.
Stephen: Cool. And then how do people get a hold of you?
Camille: Yeah. So the best way to get a hold of me right now is probably LinkedIn.
Stephen: Yeah. And I’ll link to your stuff as well, but,
Camille: Yeah. Perfect. Yeah, so that’s probably the best way. Ironically, I do have a website, it was built right out of college, so 2014 for me. It needs some updates. I say, ironically, because of the web copy work that I do.
So I should probably update that. But I do have a portfolio site. But yeah, LinkedIn is the best way to get a hold of me right now.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s cool. What’s interesting about business nowadays is there’s a lot of people that don’t have websites. You can do all of your, LinkedIn is your website to a certain degree, like your profile.
Camille: Yeah, absolutely. It can be your own landing page.
Stephen: Cool. I really appreciate you coming on and I look forward to seeing you around on LinkedIn and I would actually love to swing back at another time and have you back on to talk about some of the other things, like one of the things that you mentioned such as the company pages.
I’d love to dig into that a little bit and learn a little bit at some later time, and then talk more about the copywriting that you do and then, and how you develop some of those messages. Would be great to have you back on.
Camille: Yeah, absolutely.
Stephen: Cool. Thank you very much.