Stephen: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Digital Masters Podcast. Today we have Jody Grunden, CEO and co-founder of summit CPA, who is running a $9 million virtual CFO firm. And we’re going to be talking about why selecting a niche and doing content marketing with SEO specifically has been key to growing his firm.
Let’s get started. What is going on Jody? Glad to have you on the show today.
Jody: Actually it is snowing today. It’s in April and we’re snowing! Well, the outside’s going well, inside we’re having a great time.
Stephen: Very cool, man. Yeah, the weather has been cooking up over on my side of the world, but I really appreciate you being on the show today.
We have a long relationship, actually. You do my taxes now. I’m helping you guys with marketing. But a long time ago when I first ran into you guys, after I learned what you guys did, I hired you. I got one of the best surprises! I sent over my previous tax returns to David.
He came back a couple of days later, he was, man, right off the bat, I’m going to save you six grand. Maybe it was even seven grand. And he’s yeah, your previous guy that did your taxes got this wrong.
And he refiled it. And man that set the stage for a lifetime, a lifelong relationship I think.
Jody: I wish we could do that for everyone, but that is not always the case.
Stephen: I’m assuming that happens though. I’m assuming that’s why you asked for the previous returns.
Jody: It does happen a lot. So when we asked for the previous turns, we’re basically looking to tie everything out with their financial statements if they’re a business.
If they’re an individual we’re looking over things and making sure everything was done right. Nine times out of 10, everything’s going to be done perfectly. There are a lot of great competent accountants out there.
But you do have the rare situation where maybe the accountant didn’t have all the information they needed to complete it, or they did it wrong and that’s when we catch it and in your case help out. In some cases, it’s the other way around where we have to break the bad news to them and say, Hey, okay, unfortunately he did it wrong. So it does go both ways for sure.
Stephen: Oh yeah. I didn’t think about that. Yeah. It’s funny, we’re about to get into talking about marketing. And one of the things I’ve been interested about is customer experience. I think that’s becoming the new marketing.
It’s like marketing 2.0, because that one thing that happened, I remember it, and anytime I run into anybody, I tell them that story. And I think that goes to show how important customer service is to your marketing in general. Because I’m not looking at one of your flyers, I’m not looking at your video. I’m remembering that one experience. And I tell everybody about it.
Jody: Yeah, I think customer service is super, super important. Obviously that keeps your retention rate really high. But I think the key there is constantly reviewing it, sending out notifications every month, every couple of months, asking people, how are things going?
Just keeping in touch with them because a lot of times, things may be going well, but you don’t know about it. And it’s great to hear about it. But things may not be going well. And that’s good to know about before it becomes a bigger issue. So I think customer service is extremely huge, especially in the virtual CFO market that we’re all in today.
Stephen: Yeah. And especially, not to go off on a tangent, but it also gives you a lot of information about what type of content you should be creating. We all think we know exactly what customers want to hear and sometimes we’re right. But sometimes we’re way off. And those interactions with clients, I think it’s sometimes because they’re basic things and we’re always a couple steps ahead.
So we don’t realize how some of these really basic things are important for content. So on that front, you guys have built a massive virtual CFO firm. You’re the juggernaut in the industry. And I know that started mostly around, and correct me if I’m wrong, but mostly around search engine optimization.
That was one of the big things you guys did early.
Jody: Yeah, I wish I could say I was a genius. I really do. But I wasn’t. it was one of those deals where in the accounting industry, the way that you got your leads was through the phone book, if everybody remembers the phone book. It was yellow pages. And you spent a lot of money on the phone book. Unfortunately back then, back in 2004, we didn’t have the money.
We started up in 2002, a completely bootstrap company. Didn’t have many clients, didn’t have much money. Didn’t have a big war chest that we could lean back on. So I had to figure out, how can I get clients without having to spend money?
And I thought, Let’s try this website thing. It sounds like it might be taking off. Everybody was back on AOL back then. It was really slow and everything, but I thought, Hey, let’s see if we can rank high on Google.
So we looked for different branding, different ways to stand out. At that point what we were doing was called outsource CFO or outsource accounting or something like that. A lot of times that had the negative connotation of maybe overseas, that type of thing.
And I wanted to rank number one. But I needed to use the vernacular that people were looking to search for and I couldn’t do it. And so we were looking through the dictionary, the thesaurus, all that kind of stuff, trying to come up with something I could rank. I looked at virtual and I thought, Virtual CFO sounds cool.
I did some Google searches for it and I didn’t see anybody out there, and thought this would be perfect. And so that’s where my search engine optimization came into play and we started right away with that. And of course, when no one’s looking for it, you pop up on the first page right away.
That means no one’s looking for it. So usually it’s not a good sign, right? That’s not a good sign of, Hey, this is how we need to go. But over time it was funny that that term, luckily, was picked up by a lot of different folks. A lot of different folks start putting it on their websites.
And now, nowadays, if you look at any CPA’s website, they have virtual CFO service somewhere on it. It might mean something different to them than what it means to us, but they have it on there. And that’s why getting up there, and in the rare circumstance of being one of the first ones there, Google recognized us right away.
And that’s why, if you ever do virtual CFO or type it in anywhere in the United States, we pop up on that first page. But the fact that we recognized that right away and then blogged on it constantly pretty much on a daily basis since 2004, which is a long time to be blogging. Articles and everything linking back to that search term in a search engine, making sure everything was optimized perfectly.
It’s something that I did personally, as an owner, back in 2004 and continued on until we got to the size where I could actually hire a marketing director to take over, and I’m bringing in folks like yourself to help out to make sure that we stay at that number one spot.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s cool. Given the way you’re talking about it, it almost sounds like you got lucky, but my guess is that there was still some strategy in there that you were utilizing.
And even beyond that, it’s a certain confidence that you had in trying something like this. What was it that allowed you to start doing it and continue to move forward when you weren’t exactly sure exactly how it was going to play out?
Jody: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. Back in 2004…you’ve got to rewind everything and kind of forget the nowadays. The term didn’t exist. The service really didn’t exist.
The closest thing that accountants did back then was they would do your financial statements, and you’d get this really cool binder that they’d give you three months after the month was over. And you’d look at it, as a business owner, and really not understand anything and you’d tuck it away and you’d thank the accountant for doing their job, type of thing.
And that’s something that, if you can remember back then, you know, that was standard because technology really wasn’t there. It was all human capital and so forth.
And when we started in 2000 to about 2004, we recognized, Hey, we’ve got to do things a little differently and we’ve got to do forward looking things. People really didn’t care, business owners didn’t care so much about the past because it’s the past. They’re looking forward to the future.
And so the future was this virtual CFO service concept. It was a big risk going that direction because now I was forward thinking but the software really didn’t exist at that point.
So we’re using Excel and trying to build these complex models in it and really helping the client, which was the small business owner, basically overcome all these obstacles. Overcome the fact of, Hey, what if I hire somebody? How does that impact my revenue?
More importantly, what does my cash situation look like three months from now or six months? Is this going to really put me out of business or is this a good thing? What does a price increase do? You know, all those different modeling things that really big companies had. We were bringing it down to the small to midsize company and really helping those folks out.
And so when we coined that term virtual CFO service, we, and again, we didn’t coin the term. I’m sure the term existed way before us, but yeah, that’s when we started actually utilizing that term and using it into the SEO side. And that’s what we went with. We thought, Hey, this is going to be what we’re going to do.
And we had a lot of naysayers thinking of virtual, what does that mean? Does it even exist? That type of thing. And we’re, I think this is going to be the term. So we started really focusing on it, knowing that if we had to make a left-hand turn somewhere and maybe change things up, we could always do that.
But that was the one that we really focused on. And really focused all of our SEO on, and it didn’t work. When I say it didn’t work, it didn’t work for about five years. We were continually using that term for about five years, building up all this credit, and you’d see one or two people pop on and maybe a full page, but nothing more than maybe the second page for virtual CFO.
And so no one was really ever looking for it. And then all of a sudden, I don’t know who or what caused it, but all of a sudden it went, Boom! And then everybody had that term on their website. And so it was cool. And I don’t know if it was because of the SEO and I don’t know if it was because it was an easy way for the bigger firms to get in.
I don’t know, but we’re a $9 million firm. Back then we were only maybe a million dollar firm and we were ranking number one with all the big boys, big accounting firms, the giant behemoth accounting firms. We were above them in ranking.
And they’ve got a powerful marketing department, so it didn’t really take a powerful marketing department. It took really consistent marketing, consistent blogging. Consistently, we didn’t miss a day. We blog every single day five days a week. And that was so important to me because I knew that was the only way that we would be able to stay on that front page.
That front page was so important because we were trying to market a service, not to just Fort Wayne, Indiana, which is where our office was way back then when we had an office, we’re completely distributed now and have been since 2013. But back then we had an office and we went in to actually do this on a global nature.
How can we do this across the United States? And one way to do that was well, we were going to buy a phone ad, an ad in every phone book in the United States. That wasn’t going to happen, and this was our ticket to be there [laughter]. And so then we started really, that’s when we started focusing on it, we knew in order to stay there, we had to really continue to drive content to it.
And then things picked up, and we did start picking up people outside of our geographic area, in Rhode Island and New York and California. And I was, Wow, this is really working out. It was still pretty slow until we started niching into a space. And then when we did that, it really blew up and allowed us to become what we are today.
Stephen: Yeah. That’s interesting. And I love that you had the persistence for five years and hearing you, this is the thing I try to convey to people. A lot of it is, the main thing is that you took some sort of measured risks. You knew you had to, to achieve the goals that you wanted.
You tried, and you were consistent, and you understood that you could ultimately change directions if you needed to. That’s one of the things I’m always working with people on because they get so hung up on those initial decisions. Is it this, is it this? You could have sat around, should I do VCFO? Or you could have picked a million different things, but you decided to pick something to try it and you knew you could pivot. I think that’s the genius of it.
Jody: Taking that risk is second nature for me which is weird for an accountant, right? Because accountants hate risk. They hate change. And for me, it’s second nature. I’m always looking for the biggest and best thing.
The perfect example of what you’re talking about is my father-in-law. He should be the owner of McDonald’s. Man, he’d say, Hey, let’s put a McDonald’s on that corner. Let’s do it there. He’s got all these great ideas, but has never once bought a McDonald’s, and he would’ve been the perfect one for it. And those McDonald’s or whatever that restaurant would be, that would have been a great location, a great place for him. But he never pulled the trigger.
He had the money at the time but never pulled that trigger. And here he is, doesn’t own one at all. And that’s the same type of thing that I tell a lot of accounting firms, because we do a lot of coaching with accounting firms. They’re really risk averse, but you’ve got to actually take that leap of faith.
You’ve got to do it. You’ve got to change things around if you want to grow and grow the way that we’re growing or grow the way that the future is gonna hold. You can’t stay in the past. You’ve got to take a risk and take that movement.
SEO is the way to go. It still is. It was back in 2004, definitely. We jumped on the bandwagon back then, but man, it’s even so much more important today. That’s what drives over 40% of our revenue. It’s coming from our marketing efforts and it’s cool that we’ve never had to do any kind of outreach marketing at all.
It’s all inbound through SEO and other social media and so forth. We don’t get any clients outbound. We don’t even try to outbound marketing. We haven’t done outbound marketing probably since 2006 or 2007. When you’re trying to really drum some business up, inbound marketing is the way to go. And SEO is the trigger for that, for sure.
Stephen: Yeah. You spent a little bit of time, well not a little bit — five years — getting this to work, but that’s what allows the scalability as you grow, because you have all of that momentum.
And it’s like you said, it’s a small marketing team. When I see other firms that are doing the outbound game, they can’t scale that. And as soon as they stop, they get distracted or take on too much, or it’s hard to find enough rainmakers to actually go out there and close those kinds of deals.
They can’t hire enough people to do it. And then you’ve got people doing sales and they’re also experts and it becomes a really hard thing to do. As soon as they stop, the whole engine comes to a screeching halt.
Jody: Yeah, and it’s weird because most public accounting firms, because we’d be considered a public accounting firm, their partners are out there doing all the marketing, so the marketing is really towards the partners. What clubs do they go to, or what golfing course are they golfing at? Or, what event did they go to, to get in front of people? So it’s really marketed towards those folks and you’re right.
They’re really limited on what they can bring in. With us, it’s completely different. We’ve got over 50 people that work for us, and none of them is responsible for bringing in clients. The firm is responsible for bringing in clients. The marketing is the firm. It’s not Jody Grunden or Adam Hale or Jamie Nau, or any of our directors.
It’s the firm. And so we market the firm, we market Summit CPA Group. We market that, and that’s what drives our revenue. We’ve grown. Last year we closed at about $6 million in revenue. This year, we’ll close at about 9 million. So a huge growth.
And it’s been that way every year since I can remember. The growth is exponentially getting bigger and bigger as our net’s getting bigger. And again, none of that is outbound. A hundred percent inbound. People are coming to us and it’s all due to the marketing efforts that we put into it. We do spend some money on marketing and it really pays off in the long-term.
It’s really sustainable and very scalable.
Stephen: Yeah. Plus it’s fun, I think. Because one of the things that you mentioned is that you were coining new terms, you were coining a new way to do business. And I think thought leadership where you’re coming up with new ideas, that in itself is fun.
And it also pushes the firm forward philosophically. You’re developing new ideas, sharing those things, and they develop new business. When somebody is sitting around doing outbound, that isn’t generating any new ideas. You’re keeping busy by doing busy work.
Jody: For sure. For sure. Yeah. Thought leadership is really the key to everything. When it comes to really growing a business, I could talk for hours on thought leadership. You gotta be that person that helps everyone else, educates everyone else. Not a sales pitch, you don’t want it to be a sales pitch at all.
You want to educate and help people out. And by doing so, in turn, people start coming to you in droves. That’s what’s happened to us. Thought leadership, you write books, you do articles, you pop on webcam, you do webinars, you do podcasts, you get involved in a lot of different things.
And because of that, again, people start seeking your firm out because of all the marketing that you’re doing. So I truly believe thought leadership is the key to any kind of growing and scaling in a large amount for any business.
Stephen: Yeah. Yeah.
I totally agree. That’s the same thing I do to grow my business right now. I’m not doing any outbound. What I think is interesting, too, is that it can happen faster than it did for you guys. And so I’m always encouraging people. Part of it is, are you going to commit to it?
Are you going to put yourself out there fast enough to get the feedback to correct what you’re doing and grow? So yeah, I agree.
Jody: I agree on the speed. From 2002 to about 2011, we weren’t thought leaders. We had an idea. We had this virtual CFO service that we were trying to promote and nobody was really buying it. Nobody was buying it.
We were getting maybe four sales a year, which is not a lot of sales. And our sales were fairly small. It really wasn’t until we started going from a generalist to a specialist, and really niching, that we saw things really blow up. That started about 2011 or 2012 when we saw the real growth.
I’d have to look back because I don’t know the exact numbers. But let’s say we were under a million dollars in revenue at that point and growing maybe 10% like a normal accounting firm would do. Then blowing up and doubling our size within about a year and a half. And then doubling that again and then continuing to double or really close to double every two to three years.
Yeah, you’re right. You can really blow it up if you do it right. And you can blow it up fairly quickly because people buy products and services from people who know what they’re doing. And that’s where that thought leadership comes in. And that’s where the niching comes in. The narrower you get, the more successful you get, which is a strange concept, right?
You always think, Let’s cast this big net and we’re going to get all these clients. No, cast a really small net to catch that really big fish. You want to really focus as small as you can. For us, we focus on creative agencies. For another firm, maybe they focus on dentists, maybe you’re a marketing firm and you market only to accountants, that’s a niche.
And then you can, maybe it’s only accountants within a certain size, so the narrower you get, again, the more that you become that expert in that field and people will start coming to you versus you going to them.
Stephen: I think that’s an important example because that’s another testament to what marketing is, which in my opinion, it’s a tool to test messaging.
So if you never start because you’re trying to get all the answers, you never get the learning from it. To your point about the niche, it’s the same for me. It’s not only that you’re committing to a group of people, but you’re learning their language, all that kind of stuff.
So I think my example is interesting. I first started talking to a lot of financial advisors, but then ended up also talking to a lot of accountants when I was launching my firm. I would start to learn all the different things that you guys say, the different phrases.
Jody: Yes, the vernacular is huge.
Stephen: This type of accountant is doing a lot of work with a lot of different industries. And so you start to learn all that language. Then when I’m talking to you, even if it doesn’t necessarily affect the way my service is rendered, it comes across like I understand your field.
Therefore, I’m more attractive to work with than somebody that might be doing general marketing.
Jody: Oh, that’s a thousand percent accurate. When you think about it, when we promote ideas within our accounting area we don’t say, Hey, you want to have so much cash in the bank, and here are the different metrics that you need to look at. If I was promoting those metrics to an accounting firm, they’d go, Hey, duh, we already do all this stuff. You know that’s not, that’s, what are you trying to sell us?
But in taking all those exact same metrics and repackaging it to creative agencies, it’s a new thing to them.
It’s Wow, I never even thought about it this way, or we’ve never done it that way. I’ve never looked at it that way. And now I can repurpose something that I picked up in a different area, the accounting firm area, and translate that over to the creative agency and then utilizing their vernacular along with that. It’s huge.
And so really, now you’re the thought leader, right? Maybe write a book on it, maybe do articles about it, and when you talk about your articles you’re always throwing in ‘the creative agency,’ their words, you’re selling in these different words that kind of really make it their own.
So when you’re saying, Hey, tax benefits, you’re not saying, Hey, these are the latest tax benefits. You’re saying, These are ‘the latest tax benefits for creative agencies,’ then all of a sudden they own that little space there. And so now you’re marketing towards them because they think, Oh yeah, this is it for creative agencies.
Although that’s really it for everybody, any service-based company, they all have that. And it’s amazing all the different articles that when people catch onto that, all the different articles we get from our clients saying, Hey, did you see this? It’s okay, yeah. That’s, we’ve been doing that for 10 years, or that’s normal. Don’t worry about that.
Because again, they’re marketing towards it and people are thinking, wow, this is something I’ve never heard of because it’s a creative agency thing or a doctor thing, or a marketing person thing, or whatever that might be.
Stephen: Yeah. And I think that’s the genius of it.
Not only does it help you grow your business, but it helps you improve your products. I know this is true because you’ve shown me a lot of this stuff. I know that all those spreadsheets that you created for various clients over the years developed more and more. You kept learning what didn’t work and what did work on the spreadsheets and now you guys created your own software based off of all of the learnings.
So you were in spreadsheets for years and years. And then finally you were, Man, we know so much now it actually makes sense for us to develop some custom software to do this even better.
Jody: Yeah. And that’s really the key to growing. It’s not only the marketing, because that’s just one piece of all the processes in place.
You’ve got to have a process and you’ve got to have tools. The bigger we got, the spreadsheets, you couldn’t do it. You can’t, when you have 150 clients that you’re managing on a weekly basis, you can’t change 150 spreadsheets. And every time we make a global sweep and that’s where the software idea came in, Hey, we’ve got to make this more efficient.
We have got to be profitable and then more efficient. And that’s when the software came in and that’s where we kept fine tuning everything, because we understood the vernacular. We understood the market. We understood exactly what creative agencies wanted. And we could actually build that into the software to really help us do our jobs, make our jobs a lot easier and make it easier for them.
Stephen: Very cool. So you guys have a course to help other CFOs build their firms. What are some of the things that you run up against when you’re talking with them in terms of their growth? What are the things that get in their way most and what are some things you could share to help them out?
Jody: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah we developed a course similar to what we did with the creative agencies. I do a lot of speaking engagements and a lot of my speaking engagements are in front of national groups, but there were a bunch of CPAs there. And I always got asked, how do you guys deliver this? How do you guys do this? Because they heard a lot about it.
And yeah, it was a similar approach that we took with creatives, we started opening up our books and, Hey, here’s how we did it. Here’s how we’re doing it. Here’s what works. Here’s what doesn’t work. This will save you a lot of headache if you go this direction versus this direction.
And we continued to get calls all the time, different accounting firms calling us for an hour. We’d be happy to chat with them and really help them out. But we thought, Hey, how can we do this a little bit better? And so we put a course together that really defined our entire playbook from module one to module 15, all the way from our core values to everything, really teaching them how to get from A to Z.
We’ve had a lot of CPA firms that have signed up for the course and have gone through the course. And then we meet with them on a regular weekly basis after that, kind of a town hall thing where anything is open for questions. And it’s nice, cause we’ll get 20 firms in there and they’ll be bouncing questions off of each other.
And it’s a cool thing. But the biggest thing that we found through the whole process is that the owner was really the obstacle for all these firms. The owner was, Hey, I can’t do this because… it was kinda funny. Because when I was actually doing the talks I’d get 50, 60 different firms that would come up, I’d be in line talking.
It was cool. Made me feel I was really important and I’m out there talking, explaining everything and they’d always say, Oh, I love your approach. This is great. But there’s no way we could do that. And they would tell me all the different reasons in the world why they couldn’t be a virtual firm or why working distributed was impossible or why the virtual CFO service couldn’t work, you had to be in front of somebody in person, all these different things.
And I’m, okay. And so then when I did the presentation, when we rolled out this new course, it happened to be at the same time COVID hit, which again, was really devastating for the nation. For us, it was different because we didn’t skip a beat because we didn’t have an office.
We were already distributed. We’ve been distributed for a long time. And now all these firms are being forced into being distributed, forced to work remotely and figuring out it’s not that hard. All the different things that they thought were obstacles. They figured it out, Hey, here’s how you talk to clients.
It works out really well. You don’t have to shake their hand anymore. That type of thing. So everything started really working itself out and all the obstacles went away. The cool thing about that was that now when they’re coming to our course, as they’re coming, you see the change in their attitudes. Now, it’s Hey, I want to be virtual.
I want to be completely distributed. How do you guys do that? How do you guys do that to make it work well? And the whole time it was really the owners that were the big obstacle. Wasn’t the clients, the clients don’t care if you’re in front of them or not. They like you just as well.
If you’re in California, if you’re in New York, they don’t care. It’s a big world out there. It was the owners’ thinking that really paralyzed them from acting. Over time, we can see in the course more and more people are joining the course because now they’ve already broken that barrier.
The, Hey. This can be done. We can do this. I don’t want to fall on my face 20 different times before I figure out how to do it. Let’s talk to somebody that knows what they’re doing, how they’re doing it. And when you’re chatting with all these different owners that are in there, and they’ve done little pieces and done maybe a quarter of the way that we’ve done or whatever, it really builds their confidence.
And it’s Hey, I can do this. And that’s when the attitude changes. So it’s all on the head. It’s all on the owner. The owner is the biggest obstacle out there. Yeah, for sure.
Stephen: Yeah. It’s interesting. Mindset seems to be the limiting factor in so many different things. Whether it’s marketing, growing the business, there are all these things that I think people have a preconceived idea about, and it’s hard to see beyond it. And that’s one of the main things I do when I’m doing strategy with marketing is mostly making sure that they feel comfortable.
Can you see this functioning? And when people see it functioning and, Oh yeah, it’s not going to necessarily be easy, but once you can actually see it functioning, that makes all the difference. So that’s pretty cool.
We know you do virtual CFO work you’re teaching other CPAs and accountants how to build their virtual CFO practices.
Anything else that you wanted to share in terms of what you guys do?
Jody: Really outside of that we do…I’d say 80% of what we do is virtual CFO services…and the other 20% has to do with a 401k audit. So we do something outside of that. And we thought we, Hey, we’d try it. Does this virtual work in other parts of the accounting world?
And we took that risk and of course back in 2011 we had no clients in the 401k audit area, and now we’re in the top one, half a percent of all firms giving 401k audits. So we’ve really grown that practice dramatically. Cause again, people didn’t want the auditors to be there.
And so we took advantage of that opportunity and have grown a big, very nice successful auditing practice, which is funny how that worked. It was, Hey, let’s take a risk. Let’s see if it works in another area. And I’m sure we could probably do that with other areas if we wanted to, but we’re content right now with the growth that we’re having on that. Being remote was probably the funnest thing that we’ve ever done back in 2013.
There were very few companies out there remote, there were maybe fifty to a hundred companies that were fully remote. And the only reason I know that’s because we were in Forbes magazine and it said that, ‘the 125 remote companies.’ And it was neat being amongst all these other companies that everybody’s heard of, really big companies, it was a fun thing. But it also allowed us to recruit people that wanted to work remote.
Because again, the other concept was nobody wants to work remote or is the remote job really real? And over time it was nice. We were the only ones in the field, right? So we’re bringing all these new people. And now our newest challenge this year is really more people are remote. So now maybe our workforce isn’t as big.
So we’ve got to figure out another way to bring in really great talent to service the huge demand and clients that we have. So again, life is all full of challenges, as one thing gets conquered, another thing pops up and that’s the fun thing of being an entrepreneur, because you’re always looking to figure out how we can actually fix this next issue.
Do we settle and not grow? Of course we could do that. It’d be fun. It would, we’d make a lot of money doing it, saying flat, but that’s not how we look at it. We want to grow and be big. And how can we grow and scale our client base, which we have the demand for.
Now we’ve got to get the people to be able to support that demand. And that’s the next biggest challenge for us but delivering that so far, we’ve had no issues with it. But down the road, for hiring 10, 15, 20 people a year, that’s going to make a big difference.
Stephen: That’s awesome, man. Hey, I appreciate you coming on.
I really appreciate what you guys are doing and I appreciate working with you. And I also appreciate you helping me out with my, all my taxes and stuff. It’s been a true honor and thank you for being on, Jody.
Jody: Thanks. It’s been great.
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