Stephen: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Digital Masters Podcast. Today, we have Chris Walker and he’s going to be walking us through some of the fundamentals that he has used to grow his professional service firm, his marketing agency, from zero to over $2 million in annual revenue in about a year.
So let’s get into it.
Stephen: Chris, hey, glad to have you on the show today.
Chris Walker: Thanks, Stephen. How are you doing, man?
Stephen: I’m doing great, man. And I appreciate you being accessible. It’s cool that I’ve always been able to message you and you always give a response.
Chris: I’m super grateful to be on the show.
Stephen: Yeah. Cool, man. Thanks.
So I’ve actually been following you for a while. I’ve wanted to have you on my show for a while.
When COVID hit, I actually switched from being in the tech field. I totally switched into being a marketer, totally switched careers after 25 years. I saw one of your posts. I basically took your playbook, created a podcast, and started repurposing it.
And I wanted to reach out to you right away, but I was, you know what? I should figure some of this stuff out before I invite you on. And then I started documenting what I was doing, going through that process. I was even posting on that stuff. And then Angelica actually saw one of my posts and reached out to me and we started talking and she actually helped me get you on the show.
And so I thought that was pretty meta that I was implementing your stuff, and before I actually reached out to you, your own team helped me set this up. I thought that was pretty awesome.
Chris: Yeah, that’s cool. How’s the transition journey been going so far?
Stephen: Entrepreneurial wise, you go through a lot of ups and downs, right? So I went from doing technology to doing marketing, and so there was quite a shift in my own head that I had to go through. There was a big learning curve, but on the flip side, I just started doing it.
I was getting a lot of advice from LinkedIn. I was watching you a lot. You started talking about context. And… so I almost shut down. I wasn’t listening to you as much because you did one post that basically said, Hey, here’s the playbook for content marketing. It was one post.
Buten I took it and I started executing it and I tuned everything else out. And I did go through a lot of different iterations in terms of where I am at this very moment. But I was listening to customers and all that kind of stuff you’ve taught. It’s going well now.
Chris: That’s awesome. I think that’s a good insight for a lot of people. A lot of people that sit on LinkedIn and browse and consume information don’t actually implement or do anything. At some point, you gotta go out and do it or you’re not going to get the key learning.
My theory on this is that it’s 10% learning by reading and consuming information, 20% watching an expert do it, and 70% doing it yourself. And so if you miss out on doing it yourself or you don’t actually go and execute, you miss out on a lot of the key learnings.
Stephen: Yeah, no, totally. And looking back, I probably could have even done it even faster if I had. You hit all these uncomfortable spots… but it’s really because you’re not doing it and you’re not taking the action.
So anyway, you’ve grown your agency, your professional firm, to, I don’t know exactly where it is now, but over 2 million a year in less than a year, or it was a year, about that. And you did it mostly on LinkedIn.
One of the biggest things that I took away from what you’ve always said was to know your customer really well. And everyone always says that. But you kept reiterating that.
So I was hoping, and I actually made a comment on one of your posts, at some point, I was asking for some extra advice on this. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you do your customer research and then even more importantly, once you’ve done that research, how do you put it into action?
Because everyone has those templates for an ICP. It’s got the little person sitting there and then…
Chris: We talked about it on a podcast yesterday, Marketing Molly. Marketing Molly, which is a combination of untrue stereotypes matched with the pain points that you wish that she was experiencing.
It’s completely not, it’s not real life. I’ve seen enough of them to know that it’s clear if you looked at the persona and then you went and talked to marketing Molly, that what you think is different than what Marketing Molly actually does. So I think that one is interesting in terms of customer research.
I feel like I’m always doing it.
And so I’d like to go through a couple of examples. The first one is that I’ve worked inside of B2B organizations that the CMOs I’m trying to communicate with and eventually market and sell to, I’ve been inside of enough of those companies to have a good sense about what it’s like for them in a board meeting. I’ve been in their board meetings before with my CMO.
You know what I mean? So I had a base of knowledge to understand this is what it’s like to be a CMO at a venture-funded company. That is, blah, blah, blah revenue, five, 15, 30, and up. So I had that sense.
The next thing that I did that I think was unique, you’ll definitely get this, is that I started to have CMOs on a podcast. And for those listening, it’s in ‘air quotes’ because it wasn’t even a real podcast. This is in 2019 before we had ever launched State of Demand Gen.
I had them on a Zoom and we recorded it and that recording would go on YouTube that very few people ever saw. But I had an hour to talk to these eight CMOs at the exact type of companies that I want to work with that have never heard of me. And at that point would never be interested in working with me.
And I got to understand, and I would ask them questions, it’s a podcast interview…you know what I mean? You’re asking questions and you’re learning. And I also got to throw out some of my points of view and see how people respond.
I think that’s a lot of the way that I get information now is that I communicate. And then I feel how people respond. And so I was doing that in a podcast.
I do it often on LinkedIn, I say this quite a bit now that I have an audience on LinkedIn. And even when I had a small audience, it doesn’t matter the volume, the numbers now make it more scalable, but I was doing the same thing at the beginning. I would say things. And then would listen to how everyone else was, how people responded.
I would look at, okay, the VP of sales at this type of company responded this way, but the CMO at this type of company responds this way. And you start to feel, you get objections, you get people that agree with you, you get stories, you can then dive in there.
People then send you DMs. In the beginning, it was super interesting when I was posting content– I still get them a little bit– but I got them a lot at the beginning, which was, “I work inside of a company, like what your post said, and you’re right. And none of our leaders get it. And I couldn’t even like your posts because I was afraid they might see it.”
Chris: And so you get these data points. I’ve seen it from inside the companies. And now I’m communicating and I’m getting clear data from people inside of these companies, inside of other companies, that this is a problem. And you keep going. So the idea is to build a system, build a system where you’re constantly communicating and constantly listening.
Stephen: And that’s what I have right now. Yeah, that’s cool. That is what I went through too. When I first started doing what I was doing, I created a group of people where we would all talk about this stuff. And then there were problems with what I was trying to implement with them.
And so I started talking with them about it and then I would reach out to people and have conversations with them. This is actually before I did the podcast. And I would record it and sometimes I’d even go back and listen to the recording in detail. And did I lose them or did they repeat back what I said in a different way or something like that.
But do you document it somewhere? Do you write these notes down somewhere? Do you have this big, this master list that you work from? Or is it sitting in your head?
Chris: It’s in my head. Yeah. And part of the point is that it’s changing so frequently that it makes no sense to document it. At least in my point of view.
We’re talking about companies the size, as opposed to the thousands of persons, B2B SAAS organizations, where in my view I think everyone in their marketing departments should be doing some form of customer interaction to learn, but that’s not what they do, right?
They have one person go in and do it and then put it on a document and then everyone else reads it, which is why a lot of the marketing doesn’t hit because the insight from the customer is wrong.
The next thing that I did, that I want to make sure people get, is starting when the quarantine happened about nine months ago now, maybe nine, 10 months, was that we started a wide zoom community that turned into a key content pillar on our podcast.
But it also serves as a ridiculous form of market research because you have 50 to a hundred B2B SAAS demand marketers in there that are one to two levels below a CMO.
They probably have more understanding at the tactical level of what’s actually going on at that level, asking you questions, and then you can interpret based on their questions, what’s going on.
And I can dive deeper. So whenever someone tells me, Hey, we’re trying to do content syndication, instead of telling them to not do it, I say, why are you trying to do it? Or what, when you did try it, what result did you get?
Then when 10 people ask you the question, and then you ask those questions and you get the same answer from 10 people, then you can compare it to what in other companies’ salesforce instances are doing it.
Okay, so they’re doing it because they want $50 leads. And they’re getting this result, which is that very few or close to none of them become customers. And we’ve seen that across these data points, as well as our own data. And maybe we shouldn’t be doing it. But it gives you the “why’s” that I think are really important.
I have learned to ask “why” quite a bit now. Because it’s the underlying things going on inside of the company that I find very interesting.
Stephen: Yeah. That’s pretty cool. And you opened up one of the things that I was going to touch on a little bit later. But before I get there, you have all this information in your head.
And now you have to apply it to a bunch of different things. You’ve got to create videos, although I guess most of your videos are coming from live recordings and discussions.
But in terms of even writing the landing page for your site, how do you take what you’re learning from all these customers and then put it back into the content, into your posts, so that it makes sense to the people that are buying from you?
Chris: Because when you’ve communicated enough, you don’t need to sit down and synthesize it. I’ve been communicating a lot and consistently refining it until we got to a point that we’re going to launch a website next week.
And that is where, like that year, that body of work from a year of research and listening is going to actually come through into a messaging framework. And I think that was really interesting, but the point here is that there is almost no need to do that. The synthesizing is happening in your head in real-time.
Stephen: Yeah. Because you’re always communicating when you’re posting. You’re essentially doing the same thing. You’re saying that you’re communicating it from your thoughts.
Chris: Totally. It’s already been said on a recording like this, and then it’s getting written in text with a video on top of it that’s been recorded.
And then I get to listen. Sometimes I’ll post things, not get the engagement that I would normally get, or get a borderline negative, however you want to say it, not a positive response from people. And then I get to take that back and say, this is the part that wasn’t communicated.
How do I need to reframe this? Or perhaps I’m wrong. And so those are some of the things that I’ve been doing.
Stephen: Yeah. That’s cool. So I was going to ask this later, but since we were talking about it, when you designed your weekly show or your weekly Q and A, your customer, and correct me if I’m wrong, the CMO or the target persona that you’re going to after is,
Chris: the decision maker ultimately. Yeah.
Stephen: But then your Q and A is mixed up mostly of marketers. It’s not necessarily CMOs or your content almost has two audiences, it has the primary one, which is the one that’s going to buy your services. But then it seems you’re also catering to another group of people and you’re helping another group of people.
Because even when I look at your LinkedIn stuff, a lot of the people that are responding to you are the other marketers.
Chris: So covering across the board, the primary-secondary audience is something that’s developed in business school but doesn’t actually need to be done inside of most companies.
I’m communicating to people about marketing at a deep tactical level and sometimes at a very high level, a strategic level at other times. And both of them are going to play. And I get that the comments are coming from a lot of the manager level.
But the CMOs are watching it. They’re not commenting and they’re not liking it because potentially of what it would look like when other people in their organization see that they liked my posts that are directly against what that organization believes. And so I have empathy for that. I understand those dynamics.
And the idea that the marketing manager that consumes the content and starts doing the stuff and starts having success, that that person wouldn’t go to the VP of marketing and say, ‘Hey, this is working. I would like to bring them in.’ And then you get brought in…? It happened to us a month ago. It happens.
I say this a lot, but I need people to understand, If you are only targeting C-suite, you are making a huge mistake. There are so many influencers inside of these sales that can give you access to the decision maker with a lot more context and a lot more trust. And the strategy is not like we’re going after CMOs or marketers.
I’m selling into marketing departments to change their marketing strategy.
Stephen: And it sounds to me and correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s you’re not necessarily designing different pieces of content to target different people. You have a broad spectrum and you’re constantly pumping different things out. You covered this for this group this time…
Chris: The one today was about SDRs [sales development reps]. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I’m communicating at a revenue generation level. And so we get, I get a lot of engagement from VPs of sales on that one.
And the VP of sales that feels that pain, don’t you think they have access to the CMO? Yeah. And so the key is that I’m not designing this in a way where the CMOs sees this thing and then enters into some funnel. That’s not what I’m doing.
I’m communicating things with no knowing intent for those people to see it and then immediately come by, which is why there are no CTAs and there’s no tracking links and all those different things.
When people trust you, especially in a professional service firm, you need trust in order to even have a shot at a deal. So you need trust. And when those people trust you, they are smart enough to find you if they need you.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s interesting. I did notice that you’d never had the calls to action.
Chris: It takes away from the quality of the information because it shows your real intent is to get someone to do whatever you want. And I don’t have that intent, so I don’t have those there.
Stephen: Yeah. That’s interesting. And I think that’s one of the places I get stuck sometimes. I’m an engineer, that’s my background. So I like everything to be systemized. And so I think sometimes I overthink it. Here’s the interesting thing too, when I don’t think about it and I post something that’s more from the gut it usually does better
Chris: When I’m in content mode. I am Chris, the guy that knows a lot about demand gen and marketing, not Chris, the CEO of refined labs. And that is a clear line that I draw that most people can’t draw. And that’s why I believe my content is successful because there’s nothing that I need to get out of this.
It’s to share the information. And honestly, most of the people listening to this who will take the information would either not be qualified or would never buy for me. And that’s totally cool.
Stephen: Yeah, I know. It’s helped me a lot, for sure. So another thing I wanted to get into is, because I talked to a lot of professional service firms, and — brand — most of them are doing very traditional things.
They’re networking, going to networking groups. And what’s interesting now is the networking groups are all on Zoom. They’re there for an hour and a half, and it becomes this mini social network where you get 30 seconds to chat with somebody or to say what you do.
So they don’t necessarily always value branding or building a brand. And I noticed…
Chris: With things like that, whether you’re at an actual event and you’re communicating versus going to a virtual event, that is still a brand activity. It’s just that the scalability and the reach of it is very low.
Stephen: Yeah. That’s true. That’s a good point. But one thing that I have noticed is like when I talk to them about doing LinkedIn or doing something other than that, like producing content and putting that out there, they’re always looking for that ROI. And I’m always trying to explain that to them.
And I was hoping that you could explain a little bit about it. How should people that are used to doing things very traditionally think about ROI and going on to LinkedIn and posting and doing that kind of thing?
Chris: What’s the ROI of going to a networking dinner with six people that you don’t know? It’s literally the same thing, except there are 60 million or more people. You know what I mean? It’s literally the same thing.
I get concerned about things like this on LinkedIn, which is a social place on the internet that mirrors things like a networking event in real life, the idea that you have a different expectation on the internet versus in real life.
And I think that’s really what people need to understand. The people out there with CTA’s on their LinkedIn posts is like you going up to someone at a networking event and saying, “Hey, I’m John. I saw that you did this. Come and have a meeting with me.” You’re gonna strike out a lot in those cases and you’re going to look like a jerk.
And you look like the same amount of a jerk when you do it on the internet.
Stephen: Yeah. That’s true. You’ve made several posts about how to think of LinkedIn as a networking group. And I run across a lot of people coming up to me asking, “Hey, so how many posts does it take before I get my first client?”
Chris: And that mindset will get you nowhere.
Stephen: Yeah. I think that mindset in itself is the thing that will prevent it from ever working.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. It’s actually really challenging for me to take a step back all the way back there and try and get someone over the hump here because I usually pass by that…
Stephen: Do you think it’s too much to explain?
Chris: It’s, there’s too much. That’s too much of a leap for someone that is stuck in that place in that type of business for me to expend a lot of energy trying to get there. We have the time here and I would love to, I would love to try, but I honestly find it challenging.
Stephen: No, I get what you’re saying. Yeah. I have the most success when I’m talking to somebody when they already have an inkling of doing some of these things. They’ve already seen it work.
One of the things I do talk to them about though, is you’ve likely bought a product from something that you saw on social media, even though they don’t see how they could end up doing the same thing.
Chris: And now getting started, you need to get over the mindset hump first, because if you don’t, if you’re not over the mindset hump, then your content is not going to be good. And then after you post twice and it doesn’t work, you’re going to give up.
Another example would be going to the gym. I’ve been going to the gym for a really long time. Over the past two days, I haven’t seen a dramatic increase in my physique or change in my weight. Those are some of the things that people need to need to explore.
If you are interested in building a big business that continues to grow, right now you are focused on networking events that have a very small number of the total number of people that could be there. Professional service firms, especially at this size, trade purely on word of mouth in a local area.
If you want to stop doing that, want to stop waiting for the next referral to come in, have some amount of control over your pipeline, and have some amount of control over your business, you’re going to have to figure out this stuff.
Yeah. And LinkedIn and podcasts are the places to do it for these types of companies. Because you’re selling a service. A company needs to make a conscious choice that they don’t want to do it themselves, number one.
And no matter what you do in professional services, your buyer thinks that you are a commodity, for sure. They do for us, too. And so if you do not have a brand, then you’re going to be in a place where you need to be found first, out of all of the available options.
Or you’re going to be in a pricing war with a lot of different vendors. And unless you’re the lowest price you’re going to lose. And so referral winds up being the source of credibility and trust in that case.
And I’m saying that LinkedIn and podcasts are able to do that for you in a way that you actually have some control over.
Stephen: Yeah. And plus you can reach out to people and create conversations with them, people that would not normally even talk to you. Cause you said, “Hey, come on my podcast, and let’s chat.”
One of the other things too, that I’ve found for myself, the ROI for me is, I’m learning how to do all these things. Before I got on LinkedIn, I was never on video. I was afraid to be on video. And I didn’t know that there are all these different things that are in your way.
By doing all these things, even if I didn’t get one customer from it, and I have, learning all these skills and getting on camera and talking to all these people would have been worth it.
Chris: It’s awesome. Yeah.
Stephen: So one other quick question. I was talking to you a long time ago on one of your posts. I asked you, “So what about ads to build a brand?”
I know you do it for the tech companies you work with, but what about professional service firms? Do you run ads for your own content or do you not even need it? Should professional firms even think about doing that to build a brand?
Chris: We don’t do it and I don’t recommend it.
I don’t think in the current state… and this could change, right? The marketing landscape changes quickly and the current state, and how it’s been for the past 18 months, there was no need to run ads for your $1 million run rate professional services firm. Zero. The reason being is that, especially in a high ticket…maybe it makes sense in some transactional models maybe.
But for the most part, if you’re selling high ticket deals like ours, we’re selling 100K plus deals or 150K plus deals, it’s going to be really hard to move someone across the line for that type of deal with a Facebook ad when they don’t trust you.
We have people that come in and buy our very large packages, with the shortest one being a five-day sales cycle for a 200K deal.
Stephen: That’s awesome.
Chris: The thing is that they were listening to the podcast for six months before they came in. And those are some of the things that I think people should think about.
Stephen: Yeah. On that note real quick, when you first started out, what were the size of the deals you were doing when you first started?
Chris: We’ve been able to get it up about double. I think our deals were 60K to 150K initially. And they’ve gone up. It’s mainly because we’ve started to work with larger companies that have more complexities and also have a lot more upside. It matters more to those types of companies when the spend and the stakes get higher and therefore we’re able to command a higher price for it.
Stephen: Gotcha. Cool. So one thing, as a CEO, you’re really visible on LinkedIn. And another thing that I come across quite a bit is, and they say it very directly, “I’m the CEO. I have better things to do than being…”
Chris: Yep, hear it all the time from our customers.
Stephen: So maybe this is one of those things again that’s a bridge too far. But it’s worked well for me and it’s worked well for you. What do you tell people that think that they’re too busy or they have better things to do?
Chris: I actually don’t think that it’s necessarily… I don’t think anyone needs to do this. I’ll put it that way. If you think that there are better things to do, do whatever you think is best. Know that there was a very large opportunity sitting in front of you that you’re missing out on.
Additionally, we are not going backward. So when it’s not LinkedIn, and it’s something else, the skills that you could learn on LinkedIn, that you didn’t learn, a ton of people are going to have another advantage over you in the future.
It’s the idea of people who are truck drivers that understand that self-driving trucks are going to come eventually, and they’re not doing anything about it. You put your business at risk.
There are marketing agencies that don’t do LinkedIn right now, and I’m stealing their customers that they probably would’ve gotten if they were smarter.
Those are some of the things…I’m interested in a very long-term — we’re getting good short-term results, and I think I’m confident that when done well, a lot of people will get good short-term results. It’s about mindset — but I’m way more focused on the long-term. If you keep doing the right things, this thing compounds, right?
Our results this month are growing non-linearly, exponentially from Q3 of last year. Because the audience scales. And so you get everything done using one person, as opposed to needing to scale out in sales reps or SDRs, or all these other ideas, which most professional services firms will do.
They’ll hire and outsource an SDR firm to write spam, cold emails, and LinkedIn, right?
Stephen: Yeah. I can attest to that too, man. Cause when I first got on LinkedIn, that was really the first experience I had on a social platform. Hadn’t really done much before that, but then when Tik Tok came out, I’ve been playing around a little bit.
And I’m not saying I’ve mastered it. I’ve experimented. I wanted to know what was going on. It did give me a lot of creativity towards what I was doing on LinkedIn because it opened my eyes a little bit. But I was a lot more comfortable going there and experimenting because I had already been doing this for nine months.
Chris: And so you need people that are listening to this that run businesses to think whether they’re going to still be in business in three, five, 10 years. They need to think about figuring this stuff out.
I started creating content for social networks in 2013 on Facebook to sell things, e-commerce, organic and paid. And then I moved to Instagram and YouTube and LinkedIn, and then onsite video and now podcast. And we’re experimenting with some other ones, but those are the majors.
And it’s been almost, it’s probably been eight years now. That amount of knowledge gives me a massive advantage over someone that’s starting today. And people need to think about that in their business, especially in businesses like ours.
Stephen: Yeah. And I think one of the biggest learnings that I’ve actually come away with is, when you first start doing social media, you get a little bit polluted by the feed. You’re getting all this information and it kinda, I don’t know if it does for you, but it threw me off.
Actually your post about context actually really helped me. Because all of a sudden I set up this filter that I could sift things through. But I think even learning how not to get absorbed by these platforms is a skill in itself.
But that seems like something you’ve mastered. Do you have a routine you go through where you come in, you do this, you do this, or…
Chris: There’s nothing that I could say instructional that would help people on this one. When I have two minutes between this podcast and my next meeting, I’m going to go in there. I’m going to answer whatever comments I can. I’m going to listen to the things that people are saying.
I’m going to check some things. I just get it done. I consider what I’m doing part of my job. Listening to customers, communicating with customers, doing business development, creating leads and sales, growing the business faster than any other way possible without taking on external funding.
It’s one of the most important parts of my job to communicate the narrative to the market. And so if people don’t think that this is part of their job, I think that is where the root problem is.
Let’s shove this off to Susie, the marketing manager, and let her post organic on social. She knows business. She knows about our business and our customers.
I’m not saying anything bad about marketing managers or Susie. But oftentimes those people don’t actually have a good understanding of the customers and know how to drive a business with these tools.
Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. That’s interesting. And then have you guys played around with Tik Tok at all?
Chris: In terms of experimentation, we are doing some experimentation. We haven’t actually run anything, but we’re looking at it from a media standpoint, a paid media standpoint in order to be ready, right?
It’s not ready for a B2B environment, but if it gets there, we want to be able to be one of the first there and also be able to use it. Part of our job is to innovate for our customers. And so having a good sense and a good position on how that matters to their businesses, again, is part of our role in why they pay us.
Stephen: Yeah. That’s cool.
Yeah. I think it’s been interesting to see what’s going on over there. And I don’t know, it has opened up my eyes creativity wise.
There are interesting things happening there and definitely I’ve been able to transport things that I learned there and use those learnings to stand out a little bit on LinkedIn, even taking some of the videos I’ve done on Tik Tok and I reposting them on LinkedIn. They look different because you can add some effects to them, and it’s a vertical thing, not square and it’s so, well, cool.
One last thing I was interested in, cause I come from a tech background and I know you do too. What are some of the things from your tech background that have helped you out in marketing?
Chris: So for those that are listening, in terms of my education, I studied electrical, computer engineering, and biomedical engineering and worked in engineering for a short period of time and then moved to product management.
And then after product management I moved into downstream comms to demand generation inside of some venture-funded companies and then started a business. And in the middle of that, I also built several e-commerce companies on the side, which taught me a lot of things about marketing and direct to consumer work.
And so when we get to my education, the things that a STEM education gives you is the ability to solve problems and to be analytical and to think about things at a system level. To understand how a change here would impact a change here.
And then I moved on, did some experience inside of lean manufacturing instead of high volume manufacturing places, which gave me a huge insight.
And now I take that experience in high volume manufacturing and I translate it into the principles of what it’s like when a 10,000 lead per month revenue engine is inside of a B2B SAAS organization. And there’s waste everywhere in that revenue engine. And if it was in manufacturing, all that waste would have been eliminated by now.
But companies that are on the revenue side, they don’t look at it the same way a person in manufacturing would. And so I think I have a very broad set of useful business skills that can be applied in a lot of different ways. And so those are some of the things that I think are helpful and give me an advantage. There are very few marketers that have this type of background.
There are very few marketers that have gone and developed products with engineering. There are very few marketers that religiously talk to customers. There are very few marketers that can get into a Salesforce CRM, integrate it with certain tools, push data in places and understand what that’s going to do.
And so all of those different things. There are very few marketers that understand how to read a P and L. And so all of those things put together give me a massive advantage over the rest of the market. You know what I mean?
Stephen: Yeah. I do know what you mean. Cause for me getting into marketing was a steep learning curve. But I think the one thing that helped me out, kinda like you, is I had a previous business that I grew, an agency, a tech agency.
And so I’ve learned a lot of the business stuff. And that was my crutch for getting into marketing. Cause I had to learn all the marketing stuff, but then I had all these other learnings about building a business. I was doing some of those things but I wasn’t doing it intentionally. So I had to figure some of that stuff out.
Cool man. I feel this is an obvious question, but go ahead and tell people what you do and where they can get a hold of you.
Chris: Sure. I’m the CEO of Refined Labs. It’s a B2B marketing consulting firm that transforms B2B SAAS demand generation programs, mainly for sales led organizations.
And we do that through our process in changing metrics and then training the team and then changing strategy. And that’s what we do. You can find me on LinkedIn, Chris Walker, and also on the podcast, which is becoming really popular and helping a lot of people. And that’s called the State of Demand Gen podcast available on Apple and Spotify.
Stephen: Cool, man. I appreciate you being on. This is a true honor and I do appreciate that you’re very accessible and that stands out. And so thanks for being on the show, man. Appreciate it.
Chris: Awesome. Thanks, Stephen, and to the audience I hope this was helpful and I hope you have a great day.
Reach out to Chris: