Building A Brand, SEO And Paid Ads Mastery With Chris Dreyer

Stephen: What’s going on, Chris. 

Chris: Hey, thanks for having me. 

Stephen: Yeah, man. It’s good to have you on. 

Chris: Yeah, I’m excited to be on Stephen. 

Stephen: Yeah, I tend to bring on people that kind of sparked some interest or sparked something that’s interesting that I know we can vibe on. And we had connected through content on LinkedIn a couple of times.

And then, I was driving home from the beach with my family and I saw the Jacoby and Meyers, like they have their ads plastered all over LA. And I was just thinking, man, it’s one of those brands that has been with me my whole life. And kinda I was just in awe of that.

Larry H. Parker, those, like those kind of big global or not global, but are I guess across the United States, they’re just a brand that’s been around for 30 years. And so then that made me think of you. Cause you’ve got a pretty interesting niche in terms of the personal injury lawyers and I reached out to you and I was like, “Hey, do you know Jacoby Meyers?”

And you’re like, yeah, that’s my client. And I was like, that’s awesome. That’s so cool. So I was interested, like I did check out your website and then I heard a little bit about your story, but like how did you get into this space in particular and pick that niche? Cause it’s a pretty unique niche.

Chris: Yeah. So I’ll do the really quick up to PI. So the history education teacher was managing a detention room at a high school, and typed in how to make money online. Took an Ed Dale internet marketing course. By the end of my second year teaching, I was doing substantially more with affiliate marketing than I was teaching. Had a whole bunch of sites and was not doing things long-term quality-wise.

And I got smacked around by that first Penguin algorithm in 2011, took my income from 15 K to down to two K a month. Hello. 

Stephen: You were doing all that affiliate marketing through SEO, is that… 

Chris: Yeah, true practitioner, really doing it through a variety of niches and having a lot of success at it really.

And when the income dropped, I was like, I need to get a job because when I was making more money, I was spending more too, cost of living and more expenses. And I got a job at an agency in Clayton, Missouri, and ended up being their lead SEO specialist, digital marketer.

I did basically everything and most of their clients were attorneys. So I really got comfortable talking to them. At the beginning I was a little intimidated and I was younger,, but they’re just like you and I. They’re educated, they’re passionate about their careers and their profession.

And I really understood their needs and I could help them in certain areas. And so when I went out to strike out on my own in 2013, I was considering industries. I was looking at industries that I thought could be recession proof. Obviously being in a global pandemic, it’s come into play, had I chosen a different industry, maybe like hospitality or an in-person type thing.

Stephen: Interesting. 

Chris: I started off as full service. When I say full service, I primarily designed PPC and SEO and every decision I’ve made has had some data component. And at the beginning at about three years in, I looked at the P and L and I wasn’t making a lot of money with PPC. And it’s, “Why am I doing this?”

So now there’s things that I know that I could have applied to be more profitable. 

But I ended up referring all that out, got a strategic partner who could then reciprocate. I could send them a PPC lead, they could send me an SEO lead, very symbiotic. Then I looked at design and everyone thinks, design is a loss leader versus SEO website.

Then you sell marketing. For us that wasn’t the case. They were coming to us for SEO. That’s what our reputation was about. And then they would want a design and it just didn’t make sense for us. So we went all in on law firm SEO and a few years later, 2018 hit. And I was listening to a podcast by Seth Goden and it was talking about being remarkable.

He was talking about “purple cow” and he’s, “Find the smallest addressable market you can help.” And I always knew in the back of my mind that personal injury firms, we really worked well with. But I went and looked at the data and I found that 70% of our revenue was less than 40% of our clients, which is personal injury law firms.

So it was a really clear decision, very focused, that’s what we needed to do. And that’s how we became a personal injury law firm SEO agency. 

Stephen: Yeah. That’s cool, man. And I’m kinda going through a similar thing now where there’s lots of people I can talk to.

But I’m starting… it’s interesting too, because the more you talk to them, the more you learn their language. And the more you can just speak to them about those things, like I happened to be talking to a lot of financial advisors and CPAs, and so I’m learning their lingo. 

I have started to talk to a few lawyers and they do feel different, like they have a different way of going about things.

Like I was talking to a lawyer yesterday, I was just quizzing him on things. They seem to be one industry that has a very solidified business model, like they’re all hourly, mostly. They have their LLPs a lot of them, like they have their own corporate structure.

Chris: I would think, I think from the outside it would look like that. Yeah. I think being really immersed first, they, there’s different fee structures. There’s different types of firms, personal injury law firms, they work on contingency a lot, so they only get paid if they win a case that they’re trying, or if it’s settled before court.

The other thing is, I will say this firsthand, and I think that any law firm owner that’s listening, or attorney, will get this as they teach you how to be a great lawyer or to be a lawyer in law school, but they don’t tell you how to run a business. So I would say that most law firm owners are solo.

Those SMBs have a real struggle going to the next level where there’s a lot of delegate and elevate and actually having a business operating system. And, and those that you see, your Jacoby and Meyers, your Andrew Finkelstein, tremendous business owners, they have those frameworks and they’ve elevated. 

Stephen: This was on my list later to talk about, but maybe we’ll talk about it now, since we already went there, but that’s what I was interested in.

Like what on the front end? I see the branding and they’re consistent, they’re just always in front of you, like in ads. Maybe I don’t see them on TV as much anymore. That’s because I just don’t watch TV. I watch only Netflix. 

But somehow they’re like, what is the difference? Like they’ve got that front end.

What does that backend look like? That I just never see. That’s different. How has it set up? 

Chris: Yeah, I wish I could. I wish I knew those. I’m really on the front end a lot, but I can tell you, they’re very good data conscientious. Attributions, a really important word, consistency that you’ve said is incredibly important.

And I just listened to a podcast recently that had many legal law firm owners that were successful on it. And they’re just, it’s consistency, it’s building a brand director. We’ll get you leads. And that’s great. It’s a math game. But building a brand can resonate for a longer period of time and you can’t just build a brand overnight.

And those things that you said, growing up, you knew who Jacoby was and you still remember him to this day. And that was like an intentional, consistent thing that they applied. 

Stephen: Yeah. And there was another one, Larry H. Parker. They had this one ad and this one guy would come on and say, “Larry H. Parker got me 2.1 million.” And I don’t think they’re allowed to say that anymore. But like when I was a kid, like everyone was repeating that. Yeah. And not only that, but I like, even if you’re watching the ad and even for a brief moment, you’re like, man, I want to get hurt so I can go, “So Larry Parker, can you get me 2.1?”

Chris: That’s funny. 

Stephen: Cool. So then, another thing that I like, after what initially got me interested in chatting with you, I started doing more research on you. I went to your website and then immediately I was like, I don’t go to Facebook that often, but I went there and I got one of your ads.

Chris: I, yeah, I got one on LinkedIn too.

Stephen:  And I was like, Oh, that’s pretty cool. Cause I think a lot of service-based, you consider yourself a service-based company? 

Chris: Of course. 

Stephen: Yeah. A lot of service-based companies say, “I don’t know how to get into ads.” Is that a new thing for you? Like I’m interested in how did you know how to make it profitable? Like how did you start? And maybe we’ll go through the story a little bit, so I can, cause I’m interested in this. 

Chris: That’s a really great question for us, for my business. At the beginning, it was my small sphere of influence connecting with some attorneys and then doing great work.

I got from zero to 250 K MRR, to two to 3 million, whatever that is. Mostly, referrals is doing great work. In fact, even today, even where we’re at now, and we’re at close to 600 K MRR, we only have one marketing individual and it’s a bunch of staff that does great work. Now we were very intentional about our strategies to build referral relationships.

Like I said, we got rid of PPC. It made sense to find someone that offered PPC, because our clients need that, that didn’t offer SEO. So that was a mutually beneficial thing there. And, so we’re very intentional about referrals, quality results. But it was a slow climb to that, because it takes a while to build that momentum and start getting those reviews.

But that’s what we did at the beginning. Now, what you’re seeing in the last year and a half is we’re really investing in marketing and we’re not solely depending upon referrals. We love referrals that bring with them trust, but we’re trying to build a brand. And I think that we’re investing anywhere from 15 to 20% of our top line every month into marketing.

And when I’m in other digital agency masterminds, they’re like, “Wow, that’s a lot.” And to me, I don’t know that it is because it has residual value. So we’re doing Facebook ads. We’re doing LinkedIn ads. We’re doing a lot of channels. We’re doing little mini acquisitions that can go into that strategy.

Stephen: Like you’re buying up other SEO firms or something? 

Chris: Yeah, this is letting the cat out of the bag a little bit. So hopefully too many of my competitors aren’t listening, but, we, so we’ll see. 

Okay. So the age old tactic for SEO is you want to rank for a keyword. You create something from scratch, you create a great article or asset, and then you build backlinks to it. And over time, you eventually get it to rank. 

Okay. There’s strategies that you can take that are much quicker. And that the quickest thing I can tell you is take our top line keyword, SEO for lawyers, the individuals that rank on the first page or second page of some of those, that ranking may not be worth a lot to them.

But it’s worth a ton to me. So we found circumstances where maybe an agency wrote a blog that ranked, and they don’t want attorneys as clients, or maybe they’ve pursued a new interest and haven’t updated their blog for years. So what we’ve done is we started acquiring assets. 

And now if you type in SEO for lawyers today, we don’t rank one time. We ranked six times on the first page and they’re different. 

Stephen: So tell me, what you did, what you bought, what did you buy exactly? 

Chris: Like a blog, rebrand it, now it’s our asset that we can use as leverage. We have bought landing pages and done a permanent 301 redirect and maintain the rankings.

And since taking out multiple real estate, they all kind of work together, that ‘rising tides’ effect. 

Stephen: That’s cool. So you can go out, you basically buy the page and you say, Hey, let me just adopt this page. Then do the 301. They get to keep their site, their company, but you buy that, whatever was there and you move it to your site.

And then just the 301. That’s interesting. Yeah. 

Chris: I got a lot of these ideas from Roland Frasier. He has a course called the Epic Challenge, which is all about mergers and acquisitions and the different types. And everyone immediately defaults to, “I’m going to buy a business and all the clients and assets,” and you’re like, those are like, you got to get financing.

There’s all, there’s a ton of things that go into those, due diligence, but buying just a page on somebody’s website, for less than a hundred K, setting up a 301. First of all, it’s not as risky and you can do those in cash deals a lot of times. And so you can do all different types of acquisitions.

You can do, you can buy the whole company, you can buy just a page. You can buy just the website. You can buy just the clients if you want it. And they keep the company. You can buy, maybe someone has, attorney clients and dental clients, and they want to focus on dental and you could possibly buy the legal clients.

So there’s a lot of different strategies there that I think are in my industry, which is just bizarre for me to think of. It’s not a strategy that’s really talked about, but it really works effectively. 

Stephen: Yeah, that’s actually pretty interesting. Yeah. it’s like when you buy a company, you get all that liability too.

And then of course they don’t want to do that, so they try to push it all on you and that just gets kinda messy. That’s cool. 

So then tell me this, how does a service company know when they should even start trying to add? What are some of the things to say, okay, I’m at this point. Is it a niche? Is it the number of clients? Is it revenue or is it something more subjective? 

Chris: That’s a tough question. I think that anyone that’s grown a large business, there’s a little bit of, you got to leap and just do it. You gotta have that.

You have this hypothesis, you have this idea and you just gotta, you gotta try it out and get the data. For us, it has been more about growing the brand. In fact, like our Facebook ads and things that you mentioned, my expectations are totally different than most people who want to pay for Facebook ads and they want that lead the next month.

Stephen: And they want to try to close on the first call or something. 

Chris: Yeah. And that’s just absolutely insane to me. If you understand your lifetime client value and all of the implications of obtaining a client and what that could mean to your business, more than just top line revenue, then you’re willing to pay a lot more to acquire those customers.

And if someone sees me today and they don’t hire me for three years, then it still did its job, but I’m not going to have that attribution of a goal conversion. So to me, it’s a little bit art and science. 

Obviously if you’re doing things like direct response, you’re doing a pay-per-click campaign and you’re bidding on those bottom of the funnel, or you’re doing something like that, then, yeah, you really need to measure your cost per acquisition. But if you’re thinking about the brand, it’s harder to really relate from a metric standpoint. 

Stephen: Yeah. I think you’re doing a good job, man. I want to hire you, even though I know you don’t help guys like me, but it’s just what you got, all these different pieces.

Like I went to your site, you got the videos. Tell your story. You got like a very specific niche, so I think that’s pretty cool. 

So then, once you start getting into the paid ads and stuff, how do you start? How do you think about it? Like, how do you know it’s working?

Or is it just like, what? Because sometimes it’s subjective, like you’re already saying. so what things are you looking for to say, okay, yeah, this is working? 

Chris: Yeah. I’m going to pull up, not on a share, but I’m actually going to look at our scorecard and that might help me a little bit.

So we look at, we obviously look at email subscribers, podcasts, downloads. We look at number of leads or saved number of qualified leads. We look at our organic search metrics. We’re looking at a lot of leading indicators that are predictive and that could be even a process. So for example, if we’re trying to improve our organic reach on social, it’s not always the end lagging.

Indicator the number of impressions or the social reach. It might be the actual activity, did you do two social posts per day? If that’s the goal where they hit, because that will be predictive. If you’re going to get that reach, if you don’t do the posts, you’re not going to get any impressions.

So we’re looking at leading and lagging indicators to make sure that we’re continuously improving, but again, not everything’s perfect, but we are, we do track those leads on a weekly basis that are predictive. If we’re going to increase our sales and our revenue, we can forecast, it helps with hiring.

A lot of those things that you just learn over time and our scorecards are constantly evolving. And, but that’s what we’re really focused on Is many leading indicators. 

Stephen: Yeah. I think that seems to be one of the best things for maybe building a brand is those leading indicators, like on LinkedIn, one of the things I looked at, it’s just like how many people viewed my profile.

Chris: Yeah. 

Stephen: And then I’ll go through and then I’ll see, out of the people that have looked at it, are those people that I would actually work with? So are, and I’m just kinda curious, what are you seeing on LinkedIn right now? Are you seeing, cause you’re going after a pretty specific person, are you seeing those people find you?

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I can tell you from when we started being heavily active to now, we’ve almost four times the amount of impressions, substantially more connections and followers. I have had direct leads and conversations from LinkedIn. I do know that it’s paying for itself, just from those individual circumstances.

I’ve even heard my competitors say. Jeez. You’re at the top of my feet all the time. And I’m like, that’s awesome. I think I’m more of a long-term play. I think it’s, I think consistency is critical for anything. It’s the reason we were successful with SEO before doing marketing. Cause we kept doing it.

We kept trying to help our clients. We finally got those reviews, posts and LinkedIns, consistently hitting a weekly email newsletter, consistently putting out new content and consistently getting in a weekly podcast.

Stephen: That’s what I’ve been doing. That’s what I’ve been doing.

Yeah. And it’s, I think that’s the one thing that I have, cause I basically help people with this kind of thing, like using their expertise and thought leadership to create content. It’s, it starts for some companies, depending on how big you are, it starts on just one individual platform.

But the bigger companies, they have more options. They can distribute to more places and stuff. But I think that’s one of the hardest things that I’ve discussed with some people who just don’t understand the value of it. Like some people don’t necessarily know how to do it, but they say, Oh yeah, content, then they can see the vision of what it is.

Like they buy from people that they see content from, but sometimes it’s hard to get people to see the value of doing it. And in a lot of ways… 

Chris: Yeah. I just read the book High Performance Habits and it talks about prolific quality output. PQO and if you can identify what you like doing consistently from an original content perspective, it just has tremendous effect.

Seth Goden’s, daily blogs, right? You got Shay Rowbottom on LinkedIn posts on something every day. You have other individuals that are consistent on video and Gary V on social. It’s if you can maintain that consistency over a long period of time, I think you can be successful in about anything.

Stephen: Yeah, no. Yeah, that’s true. And I think first you have to believe in it and then you commit to it. And then what I’ve noticed is like everyone says content, so then you start creating it and then you gotta decide, okay, like now how am I going to sustain this?

And for me, I always have to be doing something original, or learning something that I can then talk to people about. Cause I, I feel like my entire career has been like selling stuff that I learned just like the day before.

Funny. Yeah. It’s true though. I get excited about stuff and I’m passionate about it and I learn it and then figure out a way to package it. So for me, it’s doing videos, doing podcasts, interviewing people like you, because when I talk to you, I basically get to just learn a bunch of cool stuff from somebody, stuff I don’t necessarily know how to do.

So there’s all these, besides creating the content and the awareness of who you are, there’s all these other things that you get from it. Just interviewing cool people or bringing on people that you might want to work with on your podcast. 

There’s all these kinds of interesting ways if you’re creative about it to use it effectively. 

Chris: Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. I think what you’re doing, it’s easier to do the gift. Like when you reach out to someone on LinkedIn or email or whatever, and you’re inviting them on a show versus sending them email telling them their site is messed up.

It’s just so bizarre. It’s the individual whose site is messed up, probably that was a key decision maker on why it’s messed up. So you’re basically telling that individual that they suck. That’s just not the best approach. 

Stephen: And you’re always guessing. I suppose if you knew a market really well, and you had a really targeted list or something, you might be able to, that guess might hit a good percentage of them. But for the most part, when you send those emails, you’re just making some assumption.

And, I will say though, sometimes on those cold outreaches, you do end up having interesting conversations with people. Like the people that do respond tend to be the most interesting and open to ideas. But you do piss off a lot of people along the way, and that has an impact on your brand too.

Chris: Absolutely. I think there’s different tactics. You can take your downstream, you can mass throw out stuff. Then spam your total addressable markets. Or if you’re moving upstream to these Jacoby and Meyers, these big ones, you need to have a level of personalization, a level of customization to your message.

You can’t just have a generic message and expect to cut through to these bigger businesses. 

Stephen: Yeah. And that’s what I’ve been trying to figure out too. So there’s a lot of content marketers out there. So my take is, yeah, I know a lot of the people that I work with, they see themselves as thought leaders.

So I’m trying to take that angle and really helping them articulate those ideas and build a broader strategy around the things they say. Cause one thing, one thing that I’ve found is with some of these companies, like it could be lawyers, CPAs or financial advisors. It’s like they have all this expertise. 

But if you’re only talking about taxes or financial advice to someone like me, I might get bored hearing about that. I don’t really want to hear about my finances all day. 

But then I was talking to another financial advisor yesterday. I was like, Hey, one thing that’s cool about your story is you told me you worked two days a week and you’ve figured something out here. That’s cool. You’re like an entrepreneur. So why don’t you write some interesting content around that piece? I know you’re passionate about talking about it. 

But a lot of these people feel they can only talk about their service. That might not really tell the full story. Because most of these companies, they do sound the same. They all say, We’ll help you craft your dream life. Or, like all these kinds of bland things. 

But if you were to be like, “Hey, I’ll help you work only two days a week.” I’ll be like, Hey, that sounds pretty sweet. Tell me about that. And then maybe I’ll understand these other things that you do, too. 

Chris: I think that’s a really good point. And I find myself struggling with that where I’m just only talking about personal injury marketing and I need to basically tell my business owner what I’ve learned, what I’ve done, what I’ve done wrong. I think other individuals could connect to that. And also, there’s different aspects of myself such as being an entrepreneur, taking the leap, and being a family person, being a nerd, being a geek.

I think that’s a great point. I think immediately what comes to mind for me in my market of someone who’s doing this is Brown and Crouppen’s Ed Herman. He has a YouTube channel where he is basically “Ed Herman of Ed Versus.” And he just put something out about Christmas gifts and he’s getting Emmy awards as a lawyer, a personal injury managing partner of a personal injury firm.

Yeah, he’s built this brand about Brown and Crouppen, but he’s also connecting with individuals because the personal injury law firm can’t predict when someone’s going to get in a car crash. But if an individual does, then he may come to mind because they saw him on Ed Versus Serial.

Stephen: Yeah, and that’s what I do on LinkedIn too. So I’ll talk a lot about my entrepreneurial journey of things that I’ve gone through. And then that expands the awareness of me in general. A lot of the people that are coming to my post may not ever want to work with me, but I know how that social network kind of works.

And so somebody likes your stuff, it shows up in the feed in all kinds of interesting ways. Kinda the fun thing for me is talking to these companies and helping them think that through, because everyone’s going to be different, right? Everyone’s story’s a little bit different.

So what their topics are are going to be different. And then what I think is at least fun for me is that they tend to have all of these blockers, like reasons why they can’t do it. So I like to say, what about this? What about that? And eventually you find something that they’re like, “Oh yeah, I like talking about that.”

Because if you don’t like talking about some of this stuff, you’re gonna be pretty bored doing it. 

Chris: It’s going to drain your energy. 

Stephen: Although I did come across the other day, I came across a CPA who is like, Total 100% practitioner loves doing what he does. And that actually comes through pretty clearly, which I thought was pretty cool.

And like, all of his content is just like straight tax and he only does taxes and he only wants to do taxes, but I think it works for him because he’s so focused on just the taxes and he loves talking about that. And so that extreme focus I think allows itself to resonate with the right people too.

But I think that is harder to grow a wider audience around. 

Chris: Yeah, I think so too. I think there needs to be a little bit of a mixture, niche 50%, 50% personal or general business. It’s contextual to the platform, of course, to where on LinkedIn, you’re going to want to talk more about business than any type of personal.

But some people have been successful in the personal route. 

Stephen: That’s what I would say. Just like advice. A lot of my personal stuff does better. And then I end up picking up, I don’t keep statistics on it, but I have a good memory for this kind of thing. I’ll remember profiles and stuff.

I’ll pick people up on the fringes. just based off of sharing something, a struggle or something like that. And I always share the struggle with some sort of triumph too. And I think people resonate with those. Those stories. And I guess they’re tied to business as well.

What I think is interesting is that everyone has their space. One of the things I was curious about, so you work with, you’re like an SEO master, all that advanced stuff, you work with the big people and all that kind of stuff.

What do you say to a guy like me? So I’m doing a lot of branding. Like I’m doing the podcast and publishing on YouTube and putting content on social media. What do you say to a guy like me? Who doesn’t know how to get into SEO. I don’t want to spend five grand a month because I don’t really know what the return would be like.

How do I think about that? Should I even think about it or do I just start small or what do I do? 

Chris: Might be a little contrary to what other individuals would say. I would say, continue to focus on what you do best, your social, your video, your live streaming, things like that until you have the return where you can hire that person that can help you and be that SEO specialist or an agency or strategic partner.

I think there’s a story that comes to mind and I got this from Jason Swink. You take Walmart as an example. Walmart has very low prices, but they don’t have great staff typically. But if they tried to be Target and they tried to improve the quality of their staff and really educate them on the quality of their products, they couldn’t be Walmart anymore.

They’d have to pay more and then they couldn’t provide the low cost items. And so I think it’s kind of the lesson that I took away from it. It was, continue with your strengths. Focus on only doing that and then find someone else that gets energy and has a strength in the thing that you’re missing.

For me, I don’t love invoicing in QuickBooks and taxes and accounts receivable. I hate it, but I’ve got a director of finance that loves it. Like he can do it. 

Stephen: That’s cool. Yeah. it’s funny. I’ve been doing some personality stuff and I’ve found I think I’m kinda more like an inventor-dreamer.

I like to think about things and come up with strategies. I actually don’t like to execute very much. I’ve learned how to do it as a necessity, but I don’t really like to do it. And I don’t really actually like to study numbers. 

So let me ask you this then. Let’s say if I did run across a guy who loves to look at numbers and he loves to do the SEO stuff.

So if I were to hire a guy, what’s the best working relationship? Do I still write and he just tells me what I need to focus on, what are the keywords? And how do you come up with a mixture? Where I’m providing the thoughts, but he’s still doing like the technical SEO part.

Like how do you manage? 

Chris: I think that definitely I would get some foundational learning, the foundational basics of SEO or anything that you’re going to be involved in. So you can evaluate if it’s successful or if the person that you’ve hired is doing a good job. The other thing is it’s going to differ.

It’s going to be totally different for you or me or whoever. It’s however you like to work. And what provides you energy. I think the Eisenhower matrix, it’s the, the urgent- important, the different quadrants. And it’s the same for delegate-elevate. Like you should focus on the things that you do best and you enjoy doing and get everything else off your plate, but it’s a business framework.

So it’s, how are you going to organize the structure? Your business is going to be a marketing department with an individual that runs that and then has the SEO specialists, or are you going to be just the visionary that has the ideas and has other people  implement them? It’s going to be totally different for every individual owner.

Stephen: Gotcha. I was hoping you were going to tell me the exact roadmap. 

Chris: I wish I had it. 

Stephen: Yeah. I have a guy just getting into SEO, but I’ve just kinda been interacting with him and I know he’s got the mind to figure these things out. So I’m thinking about using that as an entryway, I’ll learn stuff from him.

Maybe he can give me enough direction to just make some early progress. I am writing some blogs, but I’d like to know that it was at least a little bit more focused. But yeah, I think you’re right. I do want to continue doing the stuff that I’m doing because I feel like I am seeing the results of it.

Like people reaching out to me and wanting to work with me or it ends up happening in so many different ways. Sometimes they’ll just be reminded of you because they’ll see something, like you already knew them, but they just aren’t even people in your local network. So I did join more of a traditional networking group.

And all those people are starting to see what I’m doing over there on LinkedIn and stuff. So it’s interesting how all these things pulled together. 

Chris: Yeah, and I think that’s a good point. Then the networking part, be learning from other individuals’ mistakes, learning what they’re doing, what’s working. I did this, I did the exact same thing.

Early in my career, Dan Goldstein, who formerly owned Page 1 Solutions, I was talking to him about owning a business and owning a digital agency. And he recommended at the time that we join Vistage. Oh, yeah. And I joined Vistage and I was in it for three years and for those three years, it was very, it was excellent for me. Now, I’m in a digital agency mastermind and I have my own executive coach. I needed that foundation with Vistage in the very beginning.

Stephen: Yeah, that’s cool. Cool. So we touched on it, but just tell everybody exactly who you do work for and exactly what you do for them. 

Chris: So we help elite personal injury attorneys dominate first page rankings with SEO. And my website is And, but if you’re wanting to connect with me on social, I’m most active on LinkedIn and you can just find me under Chris Dreyer.

Stephen: Cool man. Yeah. And I’ll link to your stuff too. Cool. Hey, Hey, I really appreciate you being on like this. I knew we’d have a cool conversation and, I’m looking forward to getting to know you better and continuing our relationship, man. So I appreciate you coming on. 

Chris: Thanks so much for having me on Stephen.

Stephen: All right. Cool, man. I’ll see ya.

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