Stephen: All right, Doug, man. Hey, thanks for being on the podcast today.
Doug: Hey man. Thanks for having me. Yeah,
Stephen: No problem, man. It’s finally good to be…, we actually talked before, once for a short call, but it’s good to finally meet up. It’s been interesting being on LinkedIn. There’s so many people that I’ve met and most of the people I think on the podcast so far, not everybody, but has come from LinkedIn and I remember I saw one of your posts.
I think it was on M and M. You were, you stood out because you’re using, you use rap lyrics in your posts and maybe there’s other people. I don’t know, but you’re the only one that I noticed that was doing that. And I thought that was really cool. And so I immediately reached out to you one way or the other and that’s kinda how we got connected.
And so it’s pretty cool.
Doug: Yeah, you’re not the only person who’d reached out to me say, Hey, that was really cool with what you did with the rap lyrics. That was just me trying to get into people’s brains and be interesting, capture attention.
Yeah. And I’ve been following you for a few months before you reached out to me, but you always have very concise, tight, content, under 60 seconds. You got to the point and it was immediate, no stops. And so I’ve always been following you from a distance and then we started chatting and then boom. We just comment on each other’s posts quite often.
Stephen: Yeah, no, I think that’s what’s cool about LinkedIn. And I think, when I first got on LinkedIn, I think I was a little, I wasn’t quite aware enough to like.
I should have, I didn’t pay much attention, as much as I should, to other people, which I think was a big mistake. Because I was so focused on trying to make content and stuff. I was like, I was in a box in a way. And it was when I started reaching out and we got connected. I started being a little bit more mature and started interacting more with people, which I know sounds ridiculous, but it’s, the platform is really to engage with people.
Yeah. And sometimes I think people can miss that perspective if they’re just too focused on their own content.
Doug: I think a lot of marketers on linkedin struggle with that because when we put out content on the other formats, say blog or email or web copy, we don’t get that immediate feedback. It’s more of, we take the research we have, try to make content out of that and put it out there. And then we measure the data. We really interact with people to drive traffic to our posts or to our DM, a very different type of marketing tool, really a social platform to discuss business. So it’s just a huge learning curve for people.
Stephen: Yeah, man, it’s been a big learning curve for me. I think one of the interesting things about it is that because you are looking for that immediate response and you get that immediate feedback, it’s like a little bit of a drug and I think it warps, it warps your ability to make good content actually.
And especially, I’ve been thinking about this a lot, the last couple of days, which is, you also might see other people that are posting and they’re getting hundreds and hundreds of likes or something, and you look at what they’re posting and you’re like, it’s not really that deep or profound or actually that helpful.
And, all of these things, it’s like the best thing to do is to just produce what you think is good and what you think people want. And when you are, when people that you’re trying to reach are giving you feedback, you can listen to that, but you kinda have to stay in your own lane or you can get really distracted by all the other things that are going on.
Doug: Absolutely. I can’t tell you how many posts I’ve taken down completely. I’d typed it up, added that, it just gave me a really funny feeling that I wasn’t being myself, that I was reaching for likes and comments, really cheap tricks. To me, it’s really not that hard, given my background in direct marketing, to get you to like something.
I kinda know how to pull the levers to get more people to like something. But there’s no depth. It’s not a real piece of content that generates good conversation that I want to be a part of. Thumbs up, finally, wow, awesome. That’s fun and games, some people chase that, but for me that’s not really why I’m here. Sometimes I have to pull myself back and really focus on why am I here?
Make good connections with good people, like yourself. Get some good leads for my business. You know, I gotta put a roof over my head. Read, grow. I learned a lot of good stuff on LinkedIn, more than I ever have in college, and I can just hop on LinkedIn and spend the day on there and I have a whole degree in business.
So that’s been fun, but it’s just really a drug, like you said. You’re gonna crash. Once you take a hit of it, you’ve gotta get back for more. You’ve got to put away the pipe and focus on what you’re here for.
Stephen: Yeah. But you mentioned a good point though. I found myself doing that sometimes too, where I’m just trying to get attention, but there, but at the same time you do have to get attention.
So you have to master that balance. It’s, I need to get attention. I purposely make banners on my videos and like the first couple of lines to grab attention. But you do have to follow through with the information as well.
Doug: Absolutely. There’s nothing really wrong with attention, but I think you have to be more strategic about it.
You have to do it right. You have to do it smart. And that’s why for me, to do that, if you do it right, you’ve captured their attention way before the email came into your inbox. The kind of email I do, you have to sign up for them. So, you have to get their attention way back there.
And then they go to the landing page, fill out the email address thing, push, “Okay.” Confirm that they’re not a robot, confirm that they want to be a part of this mailing list. Then they get on the email. You have to do a lot of background to get to the email. So when you do have an email list, your attention is there. When you’re, in the morning or you wake up,
…having your coffee, you open your email for the day, it’s already there, so I understand how hard it is to get attention, but do it the right way to the point so the content works for you. I don’t think people get that. They miss that part. Your content has to work for you. You can’t be saved through the content. The content is a tool.
Makes your business easier, right?
Stephen: Yeah. So I was going to ask you that, in terms of how you work with your clients, you write their emails for them, right? Like you, you structure the emails. Do you also do the parts where you’re trying to grab attention as well? Trying to get them on the list or are you mostly focused on the email itself?
Doug: Oh, well, I think most of the clients that onboard me get a really hard lesson in real content marketing. I think they hire me initially to bang out a couple of emails, put in a welcome sequence and do that. And then when we do the onboarding meeting, quickly, they find out that’s not really going to get you any progress.
If I just crank out a couple of emails for you and then go…, like I said, let me start from way back here. Which is, where are you going to start your funnel? So social media, what kind of content are you putting out on social media that gets more people OFF of social media, ONTO a landing page, read the landing page, then get on to the email list and go through the process of doing that.
That’s a lot of steps to take, to get onto an email list. So if I’m going to give you a package of emails, that’s already not going to work if we don’t start back here. So I ask them, where do you get most of your prospects? Where do most of your people come from? So they could say, Oh, the website.
So, then we have to look at the web copy first. And then work our way to, what kind of emails are we going to write? Or they say, I’m mostly on LinkedIn, a lot. I get all of my leads from LinkedIn. But I would like better ones, or more engaged ones. So we have to work on your ‘about me’ page on LinkedIn. We have to work on your strategy as opposed to content strategy. So I work there first, so they get a little frustrated with that.
Because they want results now. They want to move quickly. That’s not how marketing works, marketing is slow. Marketing is deliberate, well thought out. By slow, I don’t mean that it takes months to create contact. I mean that you have to do the basic stuff and then we talk about email, so that’s the first part of it.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s cool. Like for myself, I do a lot of stuff on LinkedIn,
where I’m actually getting most of my signups right now. I would love your advice on how, because one of the, one of my strategies is I want to get more people on my list, but the main way I’m getting them on there now is when they book a call with me, it will, I’ll send their, they’ll do it through Calendly and I’ll send them an, an email that says, Hey, thanks for scheduling the call by the way I have, every once in a while, I’ll send out emails related to this, and this.
if you’re interested, go ahead and click on that and you’ll be subscribed and I won’t send you anything otherwise. So it gets them, I’m not auto subscribing them, but I do give them a chance in an email to, and I’d say probably 90% of the people click it. But I want to start building other ways, like should I have a subscribe in my posts, should I have them, how do I start thinking about that?
Cause I have a podcast, I have all these different things, but where do I start?
Doug: So, I particularly for LinkedIn personalities, people who use LInkedIn as the main driver for leads, I always tell the clients that I work with, the goal is to get them off LinkedIn. And that’s strange because the only people I hear who are against getting people off of a social media platform, are people who are social media marketers, so just to put that out there.
So I tell people to get people off of linkedin. Not everyone is ready to schedule a call with you. Not everyone has the funds to schedule a call with you or the time. Or maybe their priority for your type of work is a couple months later. So what are you going to do with them now?
And I always bring up the fact that everybody complains about the algorithm, right? They’re complaining that they’re not getting the kind of engagement they want with their posts because of the algo, blah, blah, blah. LinkedIn changes the rules. For instance, we just got LinkedIn stories. Now that changes the whole game, which is now becoming like Instagram. So now I have to think for my clients, oops,
Oh, do people now going to start going up to the story instead of reading the post? The game changes. You have to think about that. Where are people going to hang out more? When I think about my Instagram viewing habits, I always go to the stories first and I hang out there more than I hang out on posts. But anyway, I tell almost all of my clients to shorten their posts on LinkedIn.
Leave something in the tank. Then say, You want to hear more about that? Not enough? Not in a ‘gotcha way’ but I’m going to go deeper in this subject, Hop on my subscriber list and check out the next email that’s coming. We’re going to go a little bit deeper with this topic.
Because, as you know, you only have 1,200 characters if you make a LinkedIn post. If you use video, you have less than 60 seconds to get people to pay attention. You need to shorten your content, just slightly and leave something in the tank. Something to get them to hop on the email list, and finish the thought even deeper.
You’re not playing “gotcha game,” because you’re not selling on an email list. There’s nothing to sell. You’re just giving them better content, deeper, richer, maybe a different point of view.
People need that. Because, you can’t hang out on LinkedIn to get that kind of content. That’s always been my number one advice. Think about the content and make it juicy enough to get people off of that. Then finish your thoughts after, in the email, without a welcome sequence. You don’t need that.
You just need to get them on the list and keep cranking content out. Typically, my number one tip. Yeah,
Stephen: Yeah, that’s a good idea. I should probably be more intentional about that. Like I, I’ve spent a lot of time just pumping out a lot of value. I know that’s a loaded term, but I think I’ve not done quite enough on that front.
It’s like trying to get people onto the newsletter. So that’s going to be one of my new initiatives going forward. And it’s good that you brought up the Instagram or the LinkedIn stories too, because I know they rolled that out a little while ago, but, so they rolled that out for everybody now?
Doug: So, I just saw it for the first time today. And there’s a whole bunch of people that I follow, who already made their first story. And like I was saying, they’re changing the game already. You know, with the email game, they never change it. That content is not influenced by it’s not influenced by the algorithm. It’s not influenced by how many people like it, let’s push you out more into the network!
It IS the network. You open it. That is the network. Your attention needs to be focused on, okay, one, I need to make people comfortable with my email to the point where they know I’m not going to flood their inbox with promos, offers, and upsell. It’s simply a medium to get better content, no not better… deeper content and different kinds of content that you cannot get from my social media platform.
That allows my prospect to warm up even more, to get them ready to go to the next step. Because if I’m going to be your client, that’s not cheap. I don’t think you cost 50 bucks. I think you cost money. Some people may not be ready to shell out that kind of money. It depends on your package.
I work with coaches who charge thousands of dollars a month. Thousands. So that’s kinda hard to get people to go from a post to giving you their debit card that quick. Without your content to educate them, make them feel like they can trust you, that you have more social proof that you have the real solution to their problem.
So, that’s why I think email is such a strong content tool.
Stephen: Yeah, no, I agree. I, it’s definitely going to be something that I invest in a lot more like pretty immediately. It’s just funny. Cause you’re like, you’re trying to do all these different things. And, there’s so many different ways you’re trying to reach people and it’s, you only have so much time.
And it’s so… go ahead.
Doug: That’s the number one thing, uh, marketing today has become complicated and time consuming. And that’s why, I don’t know if you’ve been following my recent posts, but we have had a theme this week talking about old time copywriters, old time advertising people. I really admire them because they had one shot to get you.
Think about it. They didn’t have the internet, they didn’t have TV, they had a magazine. You open a magazine and you read a piece of copy. That was the only chance they were going to get to convert you.
Oh, and direct mail. Now that was a big thing back in the day. We only had one funnel. No, what we’re talking about, you have a podcast, you have webinars, now we have email. Back in the old days, they didn’t have that. They just simply focused on one piece of copy and they had to convert them right then and there. The game changed so much.
Now we’ve got LinkedIn story, that’s another thing you have to worry about. So I always tell everybody that who I work with, you have two choices. Simplify your funnel, make it more simple, for you and for your people..Or hire people. Or hire people to maintain all these pieces of distribution tools. So that’s my thought on the subject.
Stephen: Yeah, no, I agree with you on the old school guys too.
That’s why I have these posters in the back because, not only do I think that they’re cool posters, but it’s like old school copy too. And I thought that was like a, like an interesting..
Doug: …everything you need to know. Yeah. yeah. It’s enough to get you to go to the October Fest, show right behind, you trying to get it.
It looks cool. Yeah.
Stephen: I wish I could go right now. That’d be fun. okay. So now we’ve talked a little bit about the funnel, like how to get people onto the list. So like now what’s the strategy on writing the emails? Like how do you decide how often to write? Cause that’s one that I know people are always worried about. I’m always encouraging people to build an email list too. And usually people are like, Oh, nobody likes emails. And I’m like, you gotta rethink. If you’re delivering value to people, then people will like your emails. That’s the trick. You just gotta make sure it’s good.
But I actually, I remember you wrote a post a while ago, a couple months ago, and you said you should, if you could deliver an email every day, as long as it was valuable, it would probably be a good thing.
Doug: Yeah. Yeah. People also said the flip side. Do I have to post on LinkedIn? Every day?
Yes. Yeah, you should try to post often. But when does that annoy people? You annoying people is two things. One, you are doing it wrong. Two, they’re not your people. You can’t make everybody happy. And I think people, particularly with emails when they say emailing every day is annoying, it’s only because they’re used to the wrong types of email. People who are using direct marketing tactics with email usually get the most unsubscribers.
So, direct marketers want you to take action today. Direct marketers don’t care about next week, next month. They only want you, when reading the email, to be under enough pressure to take the next step, maybe because that price is going to go away. Maybe because they’re closing the course forever. Maybe it’s because you took a knife and stabbed their pain point to death.
But look, marketers, don’t chase tribe. They’re not interested in tribes of people. They’re not interested in the long run, they’re interested in profit and revenue today. I’m not saying it’s evil. It’s just a tactic. So what they really chase is subscribers every day, push people into the email list with these leading magnets.
And they don’t really care how long you stay on the email list. They just want to make sure somebody buys today. If it’s 1%, think about it. If you have a thousand people subscribing to your email list and you change $100 dollars for your product, if 1% of that list converts, they’ve met their goal for the day. They only need 1% of that list to buy something today. That’s why people have such a negative response to daily email.
Now, when I write emails for my clients, they know right away I am not a gross marketer. Nowhere on my about page, do I talk about immediate conversion. Nowhere do I talk about upsales, scare tactics, urgency, none of that. I talk about value. I talk about entertainment, education and stories. Why do I do that? Again, because I work with clients who charge high prices.
People are not ready to buy. So email is good for a specific part of the buying journey. So you’ve got, we can talk all day about it, but you’ve got people at the very beginning. They’re not aware of a solution. They’re not aware of their own problem. Email is probably not good for those types of people. Then you got on the other end of the spectrum. They know the solution, they know the problem.
They’re just looking for the right fit. That’s what social media is really good for.
What about the middle? People that know they have a problem. Not really sure what solution they want to take. They don’t really track people because everybody’s trying to sell them something, so they just want to read more content, check out the blog.
So, email is really good for the middle part of the buyer’s journey. So when we work with clients, when I work with clients, it is really important that they understand very first, who’s their target? What they say wrong…, let’s say they want to sell skateboards, right? People who want to buy a skateboard is too big of content. What kind of skateboarders? Beginning skateboarders, pro skateboarder, rookie skateboarders?
No, you have to narrow down the target. You’ve got to figure it out. Okay, where are they in terms of the buying process? If you’re going after pro skateboarders, you’re going to have to pump a lot of content into them to convince them to move away from a brand that they’re still used to onto a new brand.
Where with the middle-o-the-road skateboarders, they need a little bit more push and shove. They need the most from you. They need to know you.
A rookie just needs to hop on social media and find a cool skateboarder like Tony Hawk. And buy a Hawk board. Anybody who’s a skateboarder knows Tony Hawk doesn’t make the best skateboards. They’re okay. So, no offense to Tony Hawk.
So once we’ve established content, market sophistication, now what about your, what do you sell? Oh, we sell skateboards. No you don’t sell skateboards. What specifically? What kind of an outcome do you sell? Skateboards. Oh, our boards, they’re flexible enough to pull off this trick and that trick.
Okay. That’s what you sell. The ability to pull off a specific trick. They have to establish all what I’m talking about before I type a single email. It really depends what you’re selling.
Typically products, you address emails to a service, like your coaching service, or stock packages where you have to pay thousands of dollars per month to subscribe to a software program — they need content for that.
I have to establish all of this before I write a single email.
One last point I will make. One email for the entire list is going to get you nowhere. You’re going to have to get used to ‘who’s who’ on your list and where did they come from?
You mentioned that on a call with a prospect, you offer them the email list. They need to go into a separate email category with content for them, because they’re pretty hot.
They’re pretty hot. Think about it. They talked to you. Something’s missing in the buying process. Now, they don’t need the email that you give to people who are not even sure what you do. These are two different emails going out at the same time.
So the people who found you through your website, they’re looking around. They see your little landing page button, they sign up for email, that’s because they’re curious. Tell me a little bit more. I’m not really sure what you’re doing. That’s a different type of email. You’ve got to identify where they’re coming from, where they are in the process.
There’s another email. Your best kind of emails are your current customers. How are you staying in contact with your current people, your people who bought from you before? Those are typically the people who are going to keep buying from you because you kept in touch. Maybe they need something, a different kind of coaching. So on and so forth, your best customer is your current customer, your best prospect is your current customer, so really three different emails so far.
So that’s how I work with email. I’ve tried to understand who’s on the list, where they came from, where they are in the buyer’s journey. And how ready are they to purchase your package, whatever you sell. So I had to know all of that before I start writing one email. Because one email is technically three emails to three parts of your list.
Stephen: So would you go about it by writing one email and then tailoring it differently to different people?
Doug: So are you’re talking about one email for the whole list, are you talking about one email for each list?
Stephen: That’s what I’m wondering is like, how would you go about thinking about that?
Would you come up with one concept and rewrite the email to three different lists or would you just come up with different emails for different lists?
Doug: Actually, because people pay me to write their emails, I have the time to do it. I will come up with three different emails for three separate cases.
But if you want to do it, I can understand if you repurpose your content. You don’t have to keep writing three different emails every time you want to send an email out. You can repurpose your content and either shorten it, strengthen it, or twist out keywords, things like that.
Again, you have to think about why are they reading your email and how have they been exposed to you before? So you’ve got to match that email to their journey, not your journey..
Stephen: Yeah. It’s like a whole different ball game in a lot of ways. I remember, I had a couple of people that signed up after they talked to me on LinkedIn and I sent out a couple of emails and I could tell, I was forcing myself to send out on a regular cadence, like just to do it.
And, I sent out like one or two of them and they just weren’t really that good. I could just tell they were I just didn’t put that much effort into it. And I saw a couple of the people that I talked to on LinkedIn unsubscribed and I was like, oh man, I guess I lost that guy because I didn’t…
Yeah. So I guess, I don’t have very many people on my list right now, so it’s not I don’t think I had statistical….
Doug: So I think with our email, our subscribers, or the people who write them, hurt more than people who unfollow you on LinkedIn because technically you can’t see who unfollowed you on LinkedIn.
You can see it on the email list. I don’t know who blocked me on LInkedIn, who muted me or who unfollowed me. We never know. In many ways that’s better,, right? No, on the email lists you get more real time data depending on which provider you use. We call them EPS, or email platform software.
So if you use, say, Mailchimp, if you use AWeber, if you use ConvertKit, they go a little bit deeper into, how long did they spend on your page? On the email? You can buy really high price packages where they tell you everything, too. Which link did they cut? And, how long did they spend on the page? Most basic email platforms don’t tell you that. And most people pick the free stuff.
So, what are you gonna pay for free stuff? You’re not going to get a lot of data out of that. So, I want to encourage you if you don’t have a list of over a thousand people to get a more expensive package.
Stephen: What is, on that note? What is the best, what do you think are the best platforms?
Doug: The best one, it just sounds so cliche, but the best one is the one that you are able to learn the quickest, the fastest. Because each one of them is so different. I was getting ready to write a post today about my favorites and not so favorites. And so I wrote it down. So let me pull it up. Because there are many of them.
So, my top two are AWeber and ActiveCampaign. And I tell people to avoid ConvertKit, Mailchimp and Infusionsoft. The first three, the reason why I told you to do that, that I prefer that, is they’re user friendly. You do not want this software program to be a headache for you, to segment your list. That’s a headache for a lot of people to migrate their data. Also, when you get deeper into the package, the first three give you more data to work with. The last three are complete garbage. If I’ve offended anyone, it’s my bad.
Stephen: Yeah. I use ConvertKit, so now I gotta switch. Ha Ha. Somebody else said that the other day, too. I’ve had it on my list, to try out some other ones. But like you said, though, once it’s working, it’s hard. You still gotta spend a bunch of time to invest and you gotta weigh those things.
So, tell me, how specifically do you work with people?
Like what does the engagement look like? How do you start working with them?
Doug: Most people find me. Well. I have three ways that I get my clients. The first one, my outbound strategy, well my inbound strategy, ok, which is LinkedIn. Most of my leads from LinkedIn come from my posts. I don’t pitch to anybody.
I’ve never sold a single product. I don’t have, oh, free webinars that you can join. I don’t have any of that. I post almost every day, except for today. And I comment hard core. I comment a lot, maybe 50 comments a day on other people, and I get a lot of traction from that, but I also have outbound strategy, cold email and direct mail. I write letters to certain business owners.
And I’ve always been able to maintain at least three to four clients per month. I’m only one guy. I only work with three to four people per month. So I’m overloaded. I told them maybe next month, I’m never gonna be in a place where I’m desperate for clients. And I think that’s a good thing because I like to work with good people.
And I like to be able to say no, it’s a good feeling when you say no to projects. LinkedIn’s been good for me.
Stephen: That’s cool. Yeah. And we talked about the cold email a while back. I thought you mentioned an interesting strategy. You would sign up for their list. And then you would consume what they were doing.
And then when you actually reached out, you would have something interesting to say, right?
Doug: Yeah. I think most people trash cold outreach. It doesn’t matter if you’re talking about the phone, writing a letter or the email. They toss you because nobody does the research. I do the research.
So I get on their email list. If I have to wait a couple of days to get my first email, you’re not the kind of person that I want to work with. You’re not using your list at all. I don’t want to spend my time on my sales call convincing you to do something that you don’t believe in. It’s not a good use of my time.
If I sign up for your email list and I get a welcome sequence and I can feel it play out throughout the week, then I have something to work with. I could tell if you’ve segmented me to this buyer or that buyer. I can tell if you’re doing that appropriately. if I notice you’re not, you’re the person I want to work with. Because I know you’re using it.
I know either you’re writing it or somebody else is writing, but you could do even better than what you’re doing right now. Here’s the strategy that I came up with: Here’s a sample of my copy based on your email. Here’s a go, it’s yours. If you want to talk about this, here’s my text number, text me and we’ll get to talking.
I only send up to 30 of those emails a month, because it takes me time. I have to get on the email list, then I have to wait, but now I have to come up with something. So I don’t guess with my cold outreach.
I know who’s doing a good job. Who has a good set up? Oh, and who could do better? It’s those who are, who could do better, that I go after.
Stephen: No, that’s awesome. Yeah. I think a lot of people on LinkedIn, especially, are always bashing cold outreach. And, that’s where I think on LinkedIn, you have to be careful about what advice you take, because like cold outreach can teach you a lot about your marketing and your strategies and all that kind of stuff.
But I think that’s a pretty cool approach and I think people that do it that way are the ones that actually have some success trying to do it.
Doug: I think people who criticize cold outreach really don’t understand that with cold outreach, you have to be the best fundamental marketer. So I’ll give you a basketball analogy.
So to create a good basketball player, what should you teach them first? Teach them how to dribble the ball, be comfortable with the ball. Most coaches teach them how to shoot. That’s all they care about, sweet shots, but to be a really good basketball player, you, you have to fundamentally be good with the ball, dribbling with both hands, with your eyes shut.
Do it behind your back, get really used to that. But most people jump into marketing only thinking about taking the best shot. Basketball starts with being comfortable with the ball in your hand. Cold outreach is about fundamental marketing. Who’s my target? What is their real problem? Not a made up problem. What’s the real problem they’re having?
And how can I present my solution to the problem in such a way that they tell you, this guy understands me. That’s fundamental stuff, that takes time.
Stephen: Yeah. And I think if you could do it successfully, I think it teaches you a lot about your approach. And, so I think it’s a pretty interesting thing to get involved with. So then, how do people get a hold of you?
Doug: So, they can find me on LinkedIn.
That’s where I’m mostly active. So hop on my LinkedIn. Type “Doug Lawson email”. Hopefully, Google, I mean I hope LinkedIn, likes me enough that they put me on top of that.
Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. I’ll link to your stuff as well in the show notes,
Stephen: Cool, man. Hey, I really appreciate you coming on here today.
It’s been an honor to hear a little bit more about you and like how you go about doing your thing. And again, I’ve always appreciated the way you do things. So it’s an honor to have you on here, man. I appreciate it.
Doug: Thanks, Stephen,. I appreciate that.